Battle for japan | GTAMotorcycle.com

Battle for japan

bigpoppa

Well-known member
Based on my own experience and hearing from others, it seems like certain manufacturers have a tendency to make 'unfinished' bikes (with bad suspension, brakes, tires, fueling etc.)

How would you rank the japanese 4 in terms of best to worst offender in this regard?

Or do you think is it model specific and not a brand wide phenomenon?

I for example have noticed kawasaki's seem to do this the least. With even their budget and entry level models having the least amount of obvious cost cutting.
 
Don't think this is particularly manufacturer-dependent ... the budget models are built to a price, the higher-end models are built to impress. Anything you buy today is going to be more refined than anything from 20+ years ago. There's a lot of parts-bin engineering going on ... there's Showa (now Hitachi-Astemo) suspension, and KYB suspension. Since Honda is/was part-owner of Showa (I'm not sure now with the Hitachi takeover) that means a Honda is going to have Showa, but any of the others could use either one. Brakes, there's Nissin and there's Tokico, they all use either one. Some Nissin calipers are OK, others are rubbish, same goes for Tokico. The exact specs of what they're buying, and the calibration, is up to the manufacturer.

I know someone who bought a Kawasaki Ninja 400 (the new 4-cylinder one) and it's a sweet little jewel.

I know someone who bought a Kawasaki Z400 (the 2-cylinder one) and it never ran right. All of the Ninja 400s (2-cylinder) need the transmission and clutch reworked before you ride on the track. (False neutrals galore otherwise)

My R3 was very nicely built, my limited experience on the street with it suggested that it would be a very good street bike, and it has been good as a race bike after I did typically-expected modifications (everyone expects to rework the suspension, for example). But heaven help the person who takes all the stock fairings off and gets the job of putting it back together. I lost count of the number of styles of screws, rivets, and push-pins. Typically on a Kawasaki there are the small M5 screws that hold adjacent fairing panels together, and the bigger M6 shoulder head screws that hold the fairings to the underlying frame, and they're all the same through the whole bike.

Late model Honda ... you can unscrew and remove every fastener you can see, and you'll be no closer to having the fairing panels off the bike. They're all on there with clips and tabs, and you have to know where and how to pull and pry to get them apart, and they have to come off in a certain sequence because removing each one reveals more screws underneath. But the basic bike is well sorted.

Friend has a CB500X ... it's built to a price, and it shows. But it works.

I've never owned a Suzuki. One of the moderators on this forum has put 200,000+ km on two different V-Stroms.

I don't think the nameplate matters much. Buy what turns your crank.

Over the years, I've had, or still own, 5 Kawasakis, 3 Yamahas, 3 Hondas. My generator is a Yamaha. My snowblower is a Honda.
 
My R3 was very nicely built, my limited experience on the street with it suggested that it would be a very good street bike, and it has been good as a race bike after I did typically-expected modifications (everyone expects to rework the suspension, for example). But heaven help the person who takes all the stock fairings off and gets the job of putting it back together. I lost count of the number of styles of screws, rivets, and push-pins. Typically on a Kawasaki there are the small M5 screws that hold adjacent fairing panels together, and the bigger M6 shoulder head screws that hold the fairings to the underlying frame, and they're all the same through the whole bike.

Late model Honda ... you can unscrew and remove every fastener you can see, and you'll be no closer to having the fairing panels off the bike. They're all on there with clips and tabs, and you have to know where and how to pull and pry to get them apart, and they have to come off in a certain sequence because removing each one reveals more screws underneath. But the basic bike is well sorted.

Upsides of naked bikes, more fun, cant go too fast without the wind beating you up, and minimal plastic to remove for maintenance


Over the years, I've had, or still own, 5 Kawasakis, 3 Yamahas, 3 Hondas. My generator is a Yamaha. My snowblower is a Honda.
No ducati's in brians garage?
 
With everyone off-shoring assembly and manufacturing to save some bucks on the low end stuff (think Taiwan, Thailand, India, Brazil) you'll see a lot more no name parts being used. No harm, no foul - just the costs of doing business.
 
Upsides of naked bikes, more fun, cant go too fast without the wind beating you up, and minimal plastic to remove for maintenance

No ducati's in brians garage?

Go ahead and remove the spark plug from a 390 Duke. I'll watch.

:)

Or the back spark plug(s) or valve cover from anything with a V2 or V4 and DOHC-4V. Don't care what the bodywork looks like or if it has any. That's the least of the headaches ahead of you. And I say this in full acknowledgment that spark plug replacement on my ZX10R is an 8 hour job. Bodywork isn't the problem. Throttle bodies are.

I've ridden S1000RRs a few times and generally liked them, although the last one at Portimao felt a bit knackered. I rode an Aprilia Tuono and liked that. I've ridden a Panigale 959 and didn't particularly care for it (suspension+steering). KTM doesn't build anything that interests me. So ... no european bikes (yet). If I had to replace the street fleet with one single bike, it would probably be a Yamaha R7. Light, narrow, quick enough, suspension that I can work with, and I'm pretty sure it'll still be running with 100,000 km on it.
 
With everyone off-shoring assembly and manufacturing to save some bucks on the low end stuff (think Taiwan, Thailand, India, Brazil) you'll see a lot more no name parts being used. No harm, no foul - just the costs of doing business.

Like "Bybre" brakes ... short for "by Brembo" ... Brembo's low-cost Asian brand.

My R3 was assembled in Malaysia. Honda and Kawasaki build all their little stuff in Thailand. I'm pretty sure the Kawasaki 400 gearbox headaches aren't due to where they're assembled, it's something wrong with the design. Kawasaki smaller bikes have had rubbish gearboxes since the EX500 days. (Mine was rubbish ...) The MTBF (mean time between failures) of my cbr125 was getting a little frustrating towards the end (that's why it's still apart and I've not fixed it) but that may have something to do with about 69,000 of its 70,000 km being WFO.
 
Go ahead and remove the spark plug from a 390 Duke. I'll watch.

:)

Or the back spark plug(s) or valve cover from anything with a V2 or V4 and DOHC-4V. Don't care what the bodywork looks like or if it has any. That's the least of the headaches ahead of you. And I say this in full acknowledgment that spark plug replacement on my ZX10R is an 8 hour job. Bodywork isn't the problem. Throttle bodies are.

I've ridden S1000RRs a few times and generally liked them, although the last one at Portimao felt a bit knackered. I rode an Aprilia Tuono and liked that. I've ridden a Panigale 959 and didn't particularly care for it (suspension+steering). KTM doesn't build anything that interests me. So ... no european bikes (yet). If I had to replace the street fleet with one single bike, it would probably be a Yamaha R7. Light, narrow, quick enough, suspension that I can work with, and I'm pretty sure it'll still be running with 100,000 km on it.
Removing spark plugs from a certain mfr's flat-twin is a breeze, can't say the same about replacing the battery on that same bike - tho' lifting the tank is not as ardous as removing acres of body work from the full fairing bikes.
Wind protection?
A quarter fairing will keep the blast off most of you, admittedly not as protective in nasty weather as those super-tourers.

Gotta give some to take some (old saying)
Whatever floats yer boat!
 
Based on my own experience and hearing from others, it seems like certain manufacturers have a tendency to make 'unfinished' bikes (with bad suspension, brakes, tires, fueling etc.)

How would you rank the japanese 4 in terms of best to worst offender in this regard?

Or do you think is it model specific and not a brand wide phenomenon?

I for example have noticed kawasaki's seem to do this the least. With even their budget and entry level models having the least amount of obvious cost cutting.
My opinion is they are all solid. There are differences in the each class, but in general I think you’re going to find most Japanese makers offer similar dependability and performance in bikes where they squarely compete.

I think overall the Japanese make a better overall motorcycle than anyone else, strengths being dependability, lowTCO, and longevity. I have 5 Japanese bikes over 25 years old that I’d confidently fire up for a ride to California and back.

Things change at race levels, but that’s not where 99.9% of motorcycles are competing.
 
Last edited:
Removing spark plugs from a certain mfr's flat-twin is a breeze, can't say the same about replacing the battery on that same bike

Or the clutch! Or the 90-degree "rear end" final drive which, on the one hand doesn't require periodic lubrication like a chain does, but on the other hand, (on certain model years) seems to require rebuilding almost as frequently as a chain needs replacing on anything else ...

On the plus side, a ring-and-piston job is (relatively) a snap on those, too. I know someone who has over half a million km on an old airhead - though not without a few teardowns.

Whatever floats yer boat!

Yup!

On the subject of scheduled maintenance that's a disproportionate nightmare ... Rear tire replacement on big touring bikes - any of them. A whole bunch of tupperware needs to come off before you can get to it.
 
Or the clutch! Or the 90-degree "rear end" final drive which, on the one hand doesn't require periodic lubrication like a chain does, but on the other hand, (on certain model years) seems to require rebuilding almost as frequently as a chain needs replacing on anything else ...

On the plus side, a ring-and-piston job is (relatively) a snap on those, too. I know someone who has over half a million km on an old airhead - though not without a few teardowns.
You don’t see many of those bikes hitting 25 years old. When they do, they spend the rest of their life under an oiled beard doing gentlemen rides.
Yup!

On the subject of scheduled maintenance that's a disproportionate nightmare ... Rear tire replacement on big touring bikes - any of them. A whole bunch of tupperware needs to come off before you can get to it.
Which big touring bikes are tough? Most I can think of will drop right out after you drop the mufflers.
 
Last edited:
Which big touring bikes are tough? Most I can think of will drop right out after you drop the mufflers.

Yeah, if you have it on a lift that holds the bike from the middle and has nothing underneath the rear wheel once raised (i.e. not mine). Otherwise ...

How do you get it out from in between the side luggage, the swingarm, the exhausts, and the rear fender? You can drop the wheel to the ground (after you get to the axle/spindle, and if it has side luggage that extends down low, that blocks direct access to that from the side, too) but then what? The rear wheel is surrounded by "bike" on all sides. The rear fender sticks way down, you can't roll it out the back. The side luggage pretty much blocks off either side, so you can't angle the wheel to one side to get it out between the fender/license plate area and the swingarm/muffler area.

I don't work on them, and the shops I deal with do sport bikes and dirt bikes and standard bikes, not touring bikes. Nothing I own requires removing exhaust systems in order to get a tire out!
 
Yeah, if you have it on a lift that holds the bike from the middle and has nothing underneath the rear wheel once raised (i.e. not mine). Otherwise ...

How do you get it out from in between the side luggage, the swingarm, the exhausts, and the rear fender? You can drop the wheel to the ground (after you get to the axle/spindle, and if it has side luggage that extends down low, that blocks direct access to that from the side, too) but then what? The rear wheel is surrounded by "bike" on all sides. The rear fender sticks way down, you can't roll it out the back. The side luggage pretty much blocks off either side, so you can't angle the wheel to one side to get it out between the fender/license plate area and the swingarm/muffler area.

I don't work on them, and the shops I deal with do sport bikes and dirt bikes and standard bikes, not touring bikes. Nothing I own requires removing exhaust systems in order to get a tire out!
My lift has a trap door, stupid east. Pull 1 muffler, the axle bolt then drop the wheel drops out the bottom.

Most times you’re doing both tires, pull the front, first, lean the bike forward and the rear will usually roll out the back.
 
If you look hard enough every main manufacturer has a good / better / best in the line up. Not the boutique builders , but the Japanese big 3 seem to know you need a flagship , a sport ride and an entry level. So they get equipped and built accordingly.


Sent from my iPhone using GTAMotorcycle.com
 
I remember my Ninja 1000SX came with tires and brake pads that I hated. I wish I hadn't chose to suffer through trying to wear them out instead of immediately replacing them, I probably would have liked the bike more
 
Go ahead and remove the spark plug from a 390 Duke. I'll watch.

:)

Or the back spark plug(s) or valve cover from anything with a V2 or V4 and DOHC-4V. Don't care what the bodywork looks like or if it has any. That's the least of the headaches ahead of you. And I say this in full acknowledgment that spark plug replacement on my ZX10R is an 8 hour job. Bodywork isn't the problem. Throttle bodies are.

I've ridden S1000RRs a few times and generally liked them, although the last one at Portimao felt a bit knackered. I rode an Aprilia Tuono and liked that. I've ridden a Panigale 959 and didn't particularly care for it (suspension+steering). KTM doesn't build anything that interests me. So ... no european bikes (yet). If I had to replace the street fleet with one single bike, it would probably be a Yamaha R7. Light, narrow, quick enough, suspension that I can work with, and I'm pretty sure it'll still be running with 100,000 km on it.
It took 5 hours to change an air filter on zx10r. I was however not in a hurry.
 

Back
Top Bottom