Advice on how to fight speeding ticket? Disclosure notes inside | GTAMotorcycle.com

Advice on how to fight speeding ticket? Disclosure notes inside

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regder

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Last August was travelling on the 401 by Chatham with two other vehicles going a similar speed. Cop was waiting under an overpass and I got the short straw. Ticket is for 131 in a 100 zone. Missed the first court date as I never received a trial date notice (this is actually true), had it reopened, and it's being held on Tuesday.

Received disclosure and it reads as follows:

Observer P.C. Hogg
B12996
-M/C driver black jacket in lane #1 trav. W.B.
-lane 2 verbal confirm/visual confirm
-Susp. M/V followed
stop initialed on 401 WB
-Confirm correct M/V stopped

My name
Date of birth
License Plate
*Descrip: 2006 Yamaha MCy Bue

Charges: Speeding 131km
in a posted 100km/h zone
*P.O.N. Offence Number
​

How can I go about disputing this? Does the observer (I'm guessing she's a rookie) have to be there, or only the ticketing officer?

Appreciate any help
 
absolutely unacceptable, you should never have to "guess" how your speed was measured! this is extreme prejudice against you, and violates your S. 7 - Charter of Rights to make a full answer and mount a defense.

how did you initially request for disclosure? did you use their form at the prosecutor's office?

request for disclosure in your own-writing and ask whether the officer has additional notes regarding the speed measuring device that was used; also request for a copy of the full operating manual for the speed measuring device

burden of proof is with the crown and they need these essential elements to get the conviction

1) establish tracking history (observe vehicle speeding and estimate speed, and then use speed measuring device to confirm the speed)
2) test and operate device to manufacturer's specs.
3) never loose sight of vehicle

so far the disclosure you've received talks about 1) and 3)... but 2) is missing completely

edit: if the trial is being held on Tuesday, you need to request an adjournment because you haven't received full disclosure

address your concerns in pre-trial about the lack of disclosure relating to the speed-measuring device

Questions

1) Date of offense
2) Date of conviction
3) Date you re-opened
4) Date you received new notice of trial
5) Date you requested for disclosure
6) Date you received disclosure

edit2: can you describe how you were pulled over? so there was one officer observing your speed, and another officer pulling you over?
 
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Thanks for your help!

I requested disclosure through the form they mailed to me when I reopened the conviction.

Offence date was Aug 13, 2011.
Original trial date was Feb 14, 2012.
Reopened Mar 22, 2012
Requested disclosure June 29, 2012 (my fault for putting it off this long)
Received disclosure July 25

The officer and his partner were both inside the car. When I was pulled over, they both came out to talk to me. Was just looking over the photocopy of the ticket they mailed to me and it just dawned on me that it says aircraft in the top right hand corner under the offence number. I guess that would mean I was timed by a plane, and the observer would be the guy in the plane?
 
both the aircraft observer (P.C. Hogg) and the ground-officer that issued the ticket will have to be present

with aircraft, they use a stop watch; however it has to be tested in order to prove that it was working properly

1) obtain speed of a police cruiser, and confirm with driver
2) contact a 1-800 number which reads the time aloud and confirm the sync
3) other methods?

with #1) you can then ask who was driving the police cruiser, was the speedometer on the cruiser certified? when was it certified? what the certification sticker reads? tire pressure? officer familiar with the vehicles maintenance history? i think with this type of testing, the driver of the cruiser may have to be present as well to give oral testimony

either way the method it was tested, needs to be disclosed prior to beginning the trial; so it would be opportune to ask for an adjournment if both officers are present

when you do go to trial, make a motion to exempt (separate) both the witnesses from the court room; this is to prevent them from listening to each other's testimony

take a look at this site for information on multiple-officer trials: http://fyst.ca/appndxb.htm
 
iFly55 said:
both the aircraft observer (P.C. Hogg) and the ground-officer that issued the ticket will have to be present

with aircraft, they use a stop watch; however it has to be tested in order to prove that it was working properly

1) obtain speed of a police cruiser, and confirm with driver
2) contact a 1-800 number which reads the time aloud and confirm the sync
3) other methods?

with #1) you can then ask who was driving the police cruiser, was the speedometer on the cruiser certified? when was it certified? what the certification sticker reads? tire pressure? officer familiar with the vehicles maintenance history? i think with this type of testing, the driver of the cruiser may have to be present as well to give oral testimony

either way the method it was tested, needs to be disclosed prior to beginning the trial; so it would be opportune to ask for an adjournment if both officers are present

when you do go to trial, make a motion to exempt (separate) both the witnesses from the court room; this is to prevent them from listening to each other's testimony

take a look at this site for information on multiple-officer trials: http://fyst.ca/appndxb.htm
Click to expand...

Thank you, should I ask for an adjournment since I don't have the observer's notes?
 
regder said:
Thank you, should I ask for an adjournment since I don't have the observer's notes?
Click to expand...

Did you already ask for those notes specifically, and they didn't give them to you?
OR
Did you just now realize you need them, but have not asked for them?

If I were you, I would request disclosure again, specifically asking for the notes of ALL officers involved, INCLUDING the two officers in the car...
 
MarcosSantiago said:
Did you already ask for those notes specifically, and they didn't give them to you?
OR
Did you just now realize you need them, but have not asked for them?

If I were you, I would request disclosure again, specifically asking for the notes of ALL officers involved, INCLUDING the two officers in the car...
Click to expand...

I never realized I had to specifically ask for all the evidence against me, I figured that was the whole point of disclosure. Since the trial is tomorrow morning, I'm going to ask for an adjournment. Should I speak with the prosecutor pre-trial or when my case is called up?
 
you should never complete the prosecution's disclosure form, they don't give you an opportunity to request for specific items

the prosecution does not have your best interest in mind; they give you the bare minimum, and leave the responsibility of getting full and complete disclosure up to you
 
And completely off topic, always ride the limit through Chatham/Kent county. Seems the opp has bugger all to do around there... I've been tagged a few times in the past, once the officer was hiding on a bike right behind the 'welcome to chatham sign'!
 
Hire a paralegal or lawyer for proper representation.

The disclosure is incomplete. The method of speed measurement is not indicated, and the related tests for that equipment are also not noted.

Disclosure 'should' also make note of HOW he identified the proper motorcycle and rider. A black leather jacket is insufficient. Make, Model, Colour, type of bike, or best of all license plate jotted down is sufficient. The officer made the effort and specific notes for identifying the correct Motor vehicle, but fails to make the simple note of how he did this.

You can ask for an adjournment, but experienced representation would proceed and would disallow any speed measuring testimony as it is not part of the disclosure - if it got that far. Some prosecutors will simply drop the ticket alltogether once the lack of disclosure is pointed out them before court opens session.

IF you do adjourn, DO NOT waive your Charter 11b right. It is not your fault disclosure is incomplete or partial. You might get a trial date far enough down the road where an 11b application would be possible.
 
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Thank you very much for your help guys. I went to court this morning. Met with the prosecutor pre-trial, stated I had an issue with not getting the full disclosure information. Told me to grab a seat and he'd get back to me. An hour later he said that they would be withdrawing the charge. Win!!!

This has been great information that I'll put to use next time I have to go through this, hopefully it won't be for a very long time.
 
regder said:
Thank you very much for your help guys. I went to court this morning. Met with the prosecutor pre-trial, stated I had an issue with not getting the full disclosure information. Told me to grab a seat and he'd get back to me. An hour later he said that they would be withdrawing the charge. Win!!!

This has been great information that I'll put to use next time I have to go through this, hopefully it won't be for a very long time.
Click to expand...

Congrats =)
 
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