I’ve also seen hydraulic/motorized lift platforms on the back of RVs and Trailers before.
3 Vehicle combination towing
- Thread starter JTR
- Start date
blackcamaro
Well-known member
There are many variations of this design on the market, not cheap, but much better than pulling a second trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYKMnbKWqDY or this type https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgrQhVTiDoU
You have to unhitch the trailer to use it, but likelihood is you'd be riding only after pitching camp anyways so really not a negative.
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Riceburner
Well-known member
That's a lot of fancy/expensive stuff to just load a bike on a pickup where a good set of ramps would be fine. Though I suppose if you are loading a Wing or decker......
This is something I'm well educated about, being in the trucking industry as well as having pulled recreational doubles as well. Here was my setup circa 2012 - our 5th wheel trailer with our Jetskis behind. We towed it quite extensively across much of the east coast, where it was legal..and that's where it gets technical.
First issue, you need a full class A licence (Not even a Class AR, or the new A-Restricted is valid) to pull any more than 1 trailer. Some basic info on the restrictions and allowances here. If you want to get into the nitty gritty, look at the MTO website for the details - you will find that the only class of licence that specifically mentions multiple trailers is the full class A, while being specifically mentioned as *not* legal in the AR, and subsequently, all other classes of licences as well were the term "trailer" (not pluralized) is clearly mentioned.
Further to that, the lead trailer must be a 5th wheel trailer. A ball-hitch trailer, or even a gooseneck is not legal....so all the tag (ball hitch) trailers you see on the road with another trailer behind them are 100% illegal.
The second trailer must have all required lights (fully operational), and if legally required to or so equipped, must also have functioning brakes. It must also be plated as it is considered a completely separate vehicle.
Several of the more common issues with RV double trailers are:
- Tongue weight issues, as mentioned. 300# of tongue weight (for example) hanging off the back of a travel trailer is 300# less on the tongue of the lead trailer..which can (and often does in poorly lashed up setups) result in stability issues.
- Stability. See above. RV's have their axles typically in the middle of the trailer vs (if you look) near the back in a commercial tractor trailer unit typically used for double towing. Axles in the middle work better for distributing the weight in an RV setup, but make the trailer inherently less stable and add in a lot of tail swing while cornering, as well as just normal driving. Both decrease stability. In an RV double the biggest reason for requiring the lead trailer to be a 5th wheel is that 5th wheel trailers are vastly more stable to begin with because of their geometry, so it makes it "workable", if still often not ideal.
- Hitches. Almost every travel trailer out there was not designed to have a hitch installed on the back along with all the structural issues that goes along with double towing. Many RV manufacturers now have specific wording that voids the warranty on the unit if double towing causes structural damage. Frame issues can happen, and in extreme cases (typically large boats behind a TT) the extreme flexing of the body of the lead trailer (again, they are not built for this) can cause exterior damage to fibreglass (popping seams are most common) as well as interior issues such as cabinetry coming loose, etc.||
- Legality. Further to the bit on that below (keep reading), where it IS legal can vary a lot...so in Ontario, if you fulfil all the above requirements, it is legal. The same can not be said for other provinces and US states - some it is legal, some it is most certainly not. If you end up in somewhere where it's not, you will be forced to disconnect the combination and tow each trailer separately to it's destination.
- Weight issues....to keep a very long story short, a half ton isn't up to the rigors of double towing.
As for the legality, a lot was left to slide in the decades past, but the OPP (and most other provincial and state law enforcement agencies) are now cracking down on it. The class AR (A Restricted) was introduced a few years ago to help combat people who were operating large RV's outside of their licence class restrictions, but double trailers were specifically restricted as they were considered something that was best left to professionals. I know a lot of people still do it anyways, but there is a fine for it (operating a vehicle not authorized) and you will be forced to split the trailers on the roadside and tow them independently to their destination, or have a buddy come and pick up the second trailer. There is also possible insurance ramifications if you are in an accident since you are effectively operating a class of vehicle you are not legal to operate.
In short, unless you have a full Class A licence, there's no way to be legal.
And yes, you can backup double trailers. I learned to do it with Super-B trains back when I started driving commercially. Once you learn it (it's all mind over matter) it's actually reasonably easy.
PP, what you say makes sense and I agree with the concept, but the letter of the law seems to allow double-towing on a G.
From O.Reg 340/94 (https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/940340?search=5-07) "any combination of a motor vehicle not exceeding a total gross weight or registered gross weight of 11,000 kilograms and towed vehicles where the towed vehicles do not exceed a total gross weight of 4,600 kilograms". There are some specific exceptions for Class G but nothing regarding double trailers (except the when over 4,600 kg towed as you referenced where double trailers are prohibited). In fact, he reg clearly has plural towed vehicles allowed for G as long as you are under 4,600 kg towed.
Actually, where in law does it prohibit creating a ridiculous train (say 5 trailers) when under 4,600 kg (EDIT: and under 25m total length)? If they were swaying, I am sure they could get you with an equipment violation, but I can't find a prohibition when dealing with a non-commercial vehicle with towed weight under 4600 kg. They probably missed in in the law as it's so ridiculous they didn't think of it as a possibility. Maybe this has been picked up in case law (including double towing on a G).
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FLSTC
Well-known member
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/long-combination-vehicles-faq.shtml#q3
Says any combination over 25M ...
Says any combination over 25M ...
FLSTC
Well-known member
If you are pulling a trailer more than 6,173lbs - does this trigger Commercial status on your truck (yellow sticker) and CVOR for the driver?
With all due respect, you’re wrong.
If you don’t believe me call the MTO and ask to speak to a supervisor, not just the first person who answers the phone.
There’s a reason doubles are specifically worded as restricted on the class AR, and accordingly, all other classes. It would make no practical or logical sense whatsoever to specifically restrict a class AR licence holder (someone who has taken additional training and testing to achieve this near class A licence) from pulling doubles, but saying that anyone with a regular old class G is free as a bird to do it.
Because they aren’t.
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LCV’s (double 48’ or most commonly 53’ trailers) are an entirely different thing and operate under an entirely different legal framework specific to them - our fleet runs them so I am quite familiar with that as well. The topic does not apply it whatsoever for the non-commercial / non tractor-trailer discussion.
This has been a topic of discussion in RV forums for decades and trust me, it has been hashed out in the law is quite clear, however for those not familiar with the situation the law can be fuzz/grey in it’s wording in places, much like the helmet argument for people who stick cameras to them...which is another active thread here right now. The topic does not apply it whatsoever for the purpose of this discussion.
But the same as the helmet argument, when you go to court trying to fight the resulting tickets, you’ll lose.
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Point taken, but in the context of someone with a HD pickup truck & large travel trailer asking about hauling a bike on a second trailer I'm assuming this is probably a heavier bike than average and that they probably have a few bucks to spend.
HTA s. 161
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK257
[h=4]Only one vehicle to be drawn on highway[/h] 161 No person shall drive on a highway a motor vehicle, other than a commercial motor vehicle, that is drawing more than one vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 161.
https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90h08#BK257
[h=4]Only one vehicle to be drawn on highway[/h] 161 No person shall drive on a highway a motor vehicle, other than a commercial motor vehicle, that is drawing more than one vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 161.
Means you need a yellow-stickered truck, you need to have a CVOR, the trailers all have to be yellow-stickered, etc.
The way these laws are written have lots of repercussions that seem to be subject to interpretation and not always enforced.
A "commercial vehicle" is defined in O.Reg. 419/15. It's a mess. A vehicle built on a truck chassis with a GVWR over 4500 kg is a "commercial vehicle".
16(2) No person shall drive or operate a commercial vehicle on a highway unless the operator is the holder of a valid CVOR certificate.
So a yellow-stickered heavy-duty pickup truck needs a CVOR license to drive it??
The way these laws are written have lots of repercussions that seem to be subject to interpretation and not always enforced.
A "commercial vehicle" is defined in O.Reg. 419/15. It's a mess. A vehicle built on a truck chassis with a GVWR over 4500 kg is a "commercial vehicle".
16(2) No person shall drive or operate a commercial vehicle on a highway unless the operator is the holder of a valid CVOR certificate.
So a yellow-stickered heavy-duty pickup truck needs a CVOR license to drive it??
Any truck with a GVWR of 4500KG or over as per the door placard does indeed need an annual inspection and related yellow sticker, yes. Again, it's something else that a lot of 3/4 and 1-ton owners are often finding out the hard way.
As for what's "commercial" and what's not, yes, the water gets muddy. If you've ever noticed that pickup trucks get black plates vs blue, that denotes a "commercial" vehicle. But a regular personal use pickup truck is seldom actually commercial in nature unless it's being used for profit.
If it's "for profit" then you do need an annual sticker regardless of the GVWR on both the truck and the trailer, a CVOR, and you need to fill out a daily inspection. This is also another great example of people finding out the hard way they're not legal - even hauling ones horses to a little horse show where you may win a $25 prize is considered "for profit", and the MTO has been known to cruise horse show parking lots and nail people for unsafe setups, no annual inspections, failure to complete daily inspection, etc. We are involved in the horse world, I've seen it happen - have photos of the MTO in a show parking lot somewhere if I can dig them up. Sometimes the tax police are there as well dipping fuel tanks looking for red dyed diesel fuel being used on-road as well - BIG ticket for that one.
In short, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
For true personal use pickup trucks many of the rules are let slide EXCEPT for the 4500KG annual inspection requirement - regardless if the truck never has anything beyond a bag of groceries in the back and has never towed a trailer in it's life, if the door sticker lists 4500KG or more as it's GVWR you NEED an annual inspection/sticker.
You do however not need a CVOR if you are using the vehicle purely for non-commercial non-profit use - there is actually an MTO document buried somewhere that details the exemptions for "personal use pickup trucks".
So yes, the regs are indeed blurry and grey in many areas specific to the commercial usage side of pickups as well.
But as I stated earlier, the police and MTO are cracking down.
Bonus point fun-fact: If you put a slide-in truck bed camper in the back of a truck >4500K GVWR the truck is now exempt from the yellow sticker requirement as it falls under the allowances for a "motorhome" at that point which have their own entire set of allowances and exceptions. But as soon as you slide it out, boom, you need it again.
As for what's "commercial" and what's not, yes, the water gets muddy. If you've ever noticed that pickup trucks get black plates vs blue, that denotes a "commercial" vehicle. But a regular personal use pickup truck is seldom actually commercial in nature unless it's being used for profit.
If it's "for profit" then you do need an annual sticker regardless of the GVWR on both the truck and the trailer, a CVOR, and you need to fill out a daily inspection. This is also another great example of people finding out the hard way they're not legal - even hauling ones horses to a little horse show where you may win a $25 prize is considered "for profit", and the MTO has been known to cruise horse show parking lots and nail people for unsafe setups, no annual inspections, failure to complete daily inspection, etc. We are involved in the horse world, I've seen it happen - have photos of the MTO in a show parking lot somewhere if I can dig them up. Sometimes the tax police are there as well dipping fuel tanks looking for red dyed diesel fuel being used on-road as well - BIG ticket for that one.
In short, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
For true personal use pickup trucks many of the rules are let slide EXCEPT for the 4500KG annual inspection requirement - regardless if the truck never has anything beyond a bag of groceries in the back and has never towed a trailer in it's life, if the door sticker lists 4500KG or more as it's GVWR you NEED an annual inspection/sticker.
You do however not need a CVOR if you are using the vehicle purely for non-commercial non-profit use - there is actually an MTO document buried somewhere that details the exemptions for "personal use pickup trucks".
So yes, the regs are indeed blurry and grey in many areas specific to the commercial usage side of pickups as well.
But as I stated earlier, the police and MTO are cracking down.
Bonus point fun-fact: If you put a slide-in truck bed camper in the back of a truck >4500K GVWR the truck is now exempt from the yellow sticker requirement as it falls under the allowances for a "motorhome" at that point which have their own entire set of allowances and exceptions. But as soon as you slide it out, boom, you need it again.
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We camp a bit and pull a trailer, and I race sailboats and often tow boats to regattas. From what i'm reading on various forums and am learning from talking to people at events that have been on the wrong side of a conversation with MTO commercial enforcemnet, OPP and in the US NY state police, there has been a lot of accidents which has brought about change.
I was driving commercial vehicles before a A,B,D , AZ system even existed, I can see why it was implimented. A guy driving a cube van delivering paper towels has a very different day than a guy driving driving a 'B' train of cement blocks, but the same license was allowed.
A lot of our regulations have a grounding in being reactive not proactive, so once enough hillbilly rigs cause accidents , we get new rules. Its being discussed that any tandem axle trailer will have an annual inspection, horse, RV, boat. Halton is currently picking on landscapers , over loaded, insecure load= riding mowers not tied down, half the clearance lights broken off. OPP orillia is having a party on #11 with boat trailers, buddy puts a 3,500lb boat on a 2,500lb trailer then puts 600lbs of crap in the boat, and pulls it with a Caravan, because it pulls no problem......
I was driving commercial vehicles before a A,B,D , AZ system even existed, I can see why it was implimented. A guy driving a cube van delivering paper towels has a very different day than a guy driving driving a 'B' train of cement blocks, but the same license was allowed.
A lot of our regulations have a grounding in being reactive not proactive, so once enough hillbilly rigs cause accidents , we get new rules. Its being discussed that any tandem axle trailer will have an annual inspection, horse, RV, boat. Halton is currently picking on landscapers , over loaded, insecure load= riding mowers not tied down, half the clearance lights broken off. OPP orillia is having a party on #11 with boat trailers, buddy puts a 3,500lb boat on a 2,500lb trailer then puts 600lbs of crap in the boat, and pulls it with a Caravan, because it pulls no problem......
ifiddles
Well-known member
saw this today at Sicard's in West Lincoln...not cheap, but might solve your problem...
http://hydralift-usa.com/
http://hydralift-usa.com/
Sometimes barely even that. We towed our last 5th wheel about 50,000KM in the 6 or 8 years we owned it..and when we sold it, it was *really* starting to show it's miles.
A lot of run of the mill travel trailers today are built around the expectation that they will only be towed a few thousand KM a year tops. Some only go a few hundred KM. Some are parked in campgrounds and never move at all.
