YYZ Plane Crash

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so as we reported here 2 weeks ago , her approach speed was twice what it should have been, and she pancaked the plane with no flair , there was a stiff crosswind that day and to compensate she appears to have just sent it . The voice recorder will be the one I want to hear, and the conversation with the tower .
 
Just about all YT videos and the comments on them are from "armchair pilots" that do not have a single hour of PIC time. :rolleyes:
Good aviation channels are Blancolirio, Mentour Pilot to name a very few.

The TSB preliminary report showed both pilots having low time. The male captain had something like 3570 hours in 18 years (low PIC time per year) and the female FO had about 1422 hours. I say low becuase one of the pilots I know (now retired) flew a Canadair Challenger years ago and with the low time per month, it could be a handful at times he stated.

As for the conditions, the landing was a no-brainer. I joked about the captain being an ex-Navy pilot doing a carrier landing since he did not round out and flare. But maybe there could have been control issues, although I doubt it.

Black Boxes DECODED - What the pilots REALLY did

Here is a Quantas Q400 pilot landing during cyclone Alfred a few days after I left there. Silly to call it INSANE, but you know media sensationalization. Really, when you have good control of all three axis and power, landing well beyond the "maximum crosswind component" is not an issue. But then I flew 5 to 7 hours most days, its like breathing air.
INSANE! Qantas Battles CYCLONE ALFRED
 
MCT said:
Here is a Quantas Q400 pilot landing during cyclone Alfred a few days after I left there.
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I guarantee you the PIC on that flight didn't go to idle at 150 feet though, which seems to like be a huge contributing factor in the Toronto crash.

Carrying more airspeed in gusty conditions to ensure a stabilized and safe approach was always taught to me as being preferable to trying to make a "perfect conditions" greaser on the stall horn like you would on a beautiful sunny summer day with the windsock sitting vertical on the pole when the weather is anything but perfect summers day.

Without looking in to landing requirements, I'm reasonably sure a Q400 could come in at a high vref and still have plennnnnttty of runway length at YYZ to stop perfectly safely. Ok, in beta for a few more seconds perhaps, use more brakes, whatever....still safer than flying an perfect weather approach on a non-perfect weather day and ending upside down.

Anyhow, yeah, ASEL PPL here pontificating about CPL stuff, but basics are basics.
 
PrivatePilot said:
I guarantee you the PIC on that flight didn't go to idle at 150 feet though, which seems to like be a huge contributing factor in the Toronto crash.

Carrying more airspeed in gusty conditions to ensure a stabilized and safe approach was always taught to me as being preferable to trying to make a "perfect conditions" greaser on the stall horn like you would on a beautiful sunny summer day with the windsock sitting vertical on the pole when the weather is anything but perfect summers day.

Without looking in to landing requirements, I'm reasonably sure a Q400 could come in at a high vref and still have plennnnnttty of runway length at YYZ to stop perfectly safely. Ok, in beta for a few more seconds perhaps, use more brakes, whatever....still safer than flying an perfect weather approach on a non-perfect weather day and ending upside down.

Anyhow, yeah, ASEL PPL here pontificating about CPL stuff, but basics are basics.
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I can tell you one thing. After years as a flight instructor, you realize that a very few have it and most do not. Its like motorcycling, driving or anything in life. I remember watching the Canadair Challenger mishap at I believe it was Shearwater. Talk about an effed up approach. I am sure he was an officer and obviously had a degree. :rolleyes: I'd give him a broom to sweep up the hangar.

My best commerical student was Top Gun and at 18, all he had was high school. A simple demonstration and he did everything perfectly. He will be retiring from Air Canada as Captain on a B787-9 in another few years.
 
MCT said:
I can tell you one thing. After years as a flight instructor, you realize that a very few have it and most do not.
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As someone who has done my fair share of instructing and observing in the commercial AZ licence world, the same happens there.

There are those who very clearly have a knack for it from day 1, can backup a 53' trailer inside an hour more skillfully than some others who have been driving for months or years, and can learn to shift an 18 speed reasonably well in a matter of days (and would very clearly be extremely skillful with it in a matter of months) where others who have been driving for years still struggle with a simple 10 speed.

B-Trains (double trailers) is another thing where some people grasp it instantly and others may struggle forever. I was one of the lucky ones who just "got" it when I was first given the opportunity to haul them close to 30 years ago. I still see others daily who have been driving for a long, long time who still struggle to get them to backup in a straight line, much less anywhere more difficult.

I was lucky to also be on this same "I just got it" curve when I was getting my PPL. I solo'd at really low hours, and pontificating with others at the time it seemed many had more than double my dual time before also getting that greenlight. I seriously struggled with all of the math components of both ground school and flight planning though, whereas others just whizzed through it.

Different folks, different knacks, indeed.
 
PrivatePilot said:
I was lucky to also be on this same "I just got it" curve when I was getting my PPL. I solo'd at really low hours, and pontificating with others at the time it seemed many had more than double my dual time before also getting that greenlight. I seriously struggled with all of the math components of both ground school and flight planning though, whereas others just whizzed through it.

Different folks, different knacks, indeed.
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Now you got me pulling my log books out. I solo'd in 19.0 hours and prior to that, I was told to quit. That was devastating and I was in tears. But then I learned that some instructors just cannot teach and I learned a lot from that. I had my students landing in no time (obviously little to no X-wind to start) using my method not found in the Transport Canada Flight Training Manual.

I had a student solo in 9.4 hours (he was an AME and likely had some air time) to as many as 29.X hours (good old Oscar who would not quit). Almost all of them in the 17-18 hour window as the practice area was a long way out from the city.

Math and physics is a walk in the park for me. I remember doing my flight planning for the Private written. I got a 93 and it would have been a 95 but I messed up the AGL and ASL for the FT and SA weather reports. The Transport Canada person marking it on the spot wanted to see my flight planning sheet since I got full marks in Nav. My Flight Planning sheet was blank since you don't get any marks for filling it out, so why waste your time on it. I was doing the math on the side of the exam sheet and answering the multiple-guess questions.

But I would pull some tricky ones when I was teaching ground school, just to see if the students were thinking.

Stick and Rudder. Read it front to back and back to front and really understand what is written.
 
Dug out my logbooks (I haven't opened my flight bag in over a decade) and checked, and I solo'd at just over 13 hours.

I also looked back at the stack of receipts also tucked away in there. Good lord if I'd invested that money instead of flying it away for sh!ts and giggles I'd be closer to retirement right now, but meh, you can't put a price on life experiences...if you did, none of us would ride motorcycles, own RV's, buy fancy cars etc etc etc..
 
PrivatePilot said:
Dug out my logbooks (I haven't opened my flight bag in over a decade) and checked, and I solo'd at just over 13 hours.
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It depends where you fly out of, a major airport or an airport in a small town.

Flying out of a major airport gives you the confidence and practice to deal with tons of traffic, etc. The downside is, getting your PPL takes longer due to get to the practice area.
 
MCT said:
Now you got me pulling my log books out. I solo'd in 19.0 hours and prior to that, I was told to quit. That was devastating and I was in tears. But then I learned that some instructors just cannot teach and I learned a lot from that. I had my students landing in no time (obviously little to no X-wind to start) using my method not found in the Transport Canada Flight Training Manual.

I had a student solo in 9.4 hours (he was an AME and likely had some air time) to as many as 29.X hours (good old Oscar who would not quit). Almost all of them in the 17-18 hour window as the practice area was a long way out from the city.

Math and physics is a walk in the park for me. I remember doing my flight planning for the Private written. I got a 93 and it would have been a 95 but I messed up the AGL and ASL for the FT and SA weather reports. The Transport Canada person marking it on the spot wanted to see my flight planning sheet since I got full marks in Nav. My Flight Planning sheet was blank since you don't get any marks for filling it out, so why waste your time on it. I was doing the math on the side of the exam sheet and answering the multiple-guess questions.

But I would pull some tricky ones when I was teaching ground school, just to see if the students were thinking.

Stick and Rudder. Read it front to back and back to front and really understand what is written.
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I had to change schools as the instructor at the first one had family problems and it showed in is teaching ability. The problem was money related. While being a flight instructor sounds important the pay sucks. Bad weather means fewer hours.
 
Now you made me troll my logbook.
Sailplanes are different ...my check to solo was after 13 hours and I have the shortest solo on record at SOSA.
Ground crew made an error and paired up a first time solo pilot with a first time solo towing pilot. Chaos almost ensued.
It ll happened quickly.
I was sitting there waiting for the tow to take up slack when bang ....WTF!!! bang again....he'd started to take off with full power without taking up slack.
Training kicked in and I pulled the tow rope before I pulled him over on his back. I didn't even think about it ...it was automatic.
I thought I'd done something wrong and I was surrounded by pilots and instructors congratulating me.
I glided about 150 m in the air after the second bang and pulled off and rolled to the verge.

Second try with a different tow ( I'm sure the first one was shaken ) there were no nerves at all on my part after that initial shock - tow went smoothly and I pulled off at 2,000 'and cocky from my first round almost did not make it to the thermals over Lion Safari Park.
Sweating a bit as was at 800' and in theory well outside the circuit but the little 1-26 got a whiff of lift and up I went for a very satisfying hour flight. Had a lot of fun in that tiny sailplane as I could outclimb anything in light thermals and short wingspan could stay in tight to the narrow thermals in the morning,
I'd spiral up well inside the larger planes and could go up earlier.....if I flew before 11 am I could stay up as long as I wanted instead of the hour limit....scored long flights a few times with that for no extra than the initial tow,
There was a set of parked school buses off the end of the runway that produced reliable lift as soon as then sun warmed them. Idle over those until the cus popped further and then have fun.

The most fun I had in a sailplane was my 5 hour endurance where I took the 1-26 up and chased a young seagull through the thermals - he could outturn me but I was faster and it was much fun.... he must have wondered what this monster behind him wanted as I could see him turn his head back towards me. Managed 5.5 hours for my first endurance award. Wonderful memory. With only 11m wings I really felt I had sprouted wings.....I was flying....not in a plane..I had wings.
Never had that with the bigger planes. I was flying in a plane.....big diff.
I would guess some of the parasailors and ultralights get the same melding wing with pilot.
I could floated up in light air tin bits banging near stall but up and up.
Don't ask it to penetrate tho ....hence the near miss with Lion Park.

Some one mentioned "getting it". There were trainee pilots still trying to get to solo after I'd been asked to instruct. Some just don't have the confidence or persistence and the biggest issue was switching instructors. They'd come out every two weeks and might as well started again so floundered and every instructor is a bit different.
I stuck with two guys I liked and were supportive and since it's all volunteer occasionally had to bang on the onsite trailer door to wake them up for flights. Some were literally take off and come down in less than 10 minutes just to get the numbers up. Got my solo in 5 weeks in August/Sept and had a great number of satisfying flights in the big broad thermals as the sun sets. Came down a few times technically after sunset but but it was sunny up there.
Thanks for the reminders....gave up after the next step of serious cross country and my own aircraft was far too expensive.
Flew in Estrella in the US ( spent years worth of $ in a week ) and in France. So many good memories....loved the sailplane flying community.
Many were commercial pilots getting back to roots....some were heroes...Gimli and the Hudson.
 
MacDoc said:
I was sitting there waiting for the tow to take up slack when bang ....WTF!!! bang again....he'd started to take off with full power without taking up slack.
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As I stated in post #104 above, "a very few have it and most do not". And that applies to so many things in life at all levels from a tradesman to a brain surgeon. You do the same thing when you are towing a vehicle. Duhhhh. :rolleyes:
 
MCT said:
It depends where you fly out of, a major airport or an airport in a small town.

Flying out of a major airport gives you the confidence and practice to deal with tons of traffic, etc. The downside is, getting your PPL takes longer due to get to the practice area.
Click to expand...

I trained and flew out of CYOO. It was nice that it was a controlled airport as it certainly had a lot of benefits from the perspective of dealing with ATC/Ground right from the very first flight, and there was just enough traffic especially on weekends to make it interesting and keep you concentrating.

You could certainly tell when other planes that we’re not used to dealing with controlled airspace came along. We had a lot of students that were training out of YPQ come to YOO for touch and goes or quick stops for the purpose of logging a destination airport, and it was often immediately evident that their radio work was always much rougher.

As for persistence in consistency when training, I agree, it makes a huge difference. I was trying to fly at least once a week, often twice, and this is what led me to solo as quick as I did I am sure. I was told that there was lots of other students who only came up every two or three weeks and Would often be well into their 20–30 hour range before being ready to solo, with some questions remaining even then.

I always said that if I won the lottery or somehow came into a bunch of money I would buy a little bugsmasher of one sort or another and get back into flying, however I have to face reality in that I’m not even sure I would be able to get a recreational medical anymore honestly - too many health questions with not ideal answers nowadays I suspect. 🫤
 
I'm finally at the weight I could pass but no money and the tropics not the spot for sailplanes.
Eyes would be okay - not sure what else would be a barrier. Last time I took a few years off I was surprised how little I'd lost ....1 check flight around the circuit and I was good to go. Thought I might need a refresher but I guess 5 years of flying built in enough muscle memory,
Sigh.
Another well loved interest kicked to the curb by age and finances.
Live virtually now. I can watch some of those long cross country saliplane journeys through the mountains and with pilot POV really "be there" especially with the vario in the sound field.

As for persistence in consistency when training, I agree, it makes a huge difference. I was trying to fly at least once a week, often twice, and this is what led me to solo as quick as I did I am sure. I was told that there was lots of other students who only came up every two or three weeks and Would often be well into their 20–30 hour range before being ready to solo, with some questions remaining even then
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exactly ....there were a few that you knew would not get solo and get shuffled gently into another interest.
There is a level of confidence but not over confidence to be achieved...I tended on the latter side but learning at SOSA which was a competition club...the extra aggression was a positive for me and instructors appreciated it mostly.
Had to laugh just now as I recall one rather interesting interchange ...was up for a spin check and no one...me, the instructor or the tow pilot was paying attention as we towed to 4,000' - chatting away. I finally noticed we were not climbing and we all realized we had tipped 90 degrees and were flying left wing down vertically as was the tow plane. Much hilarity ensued.
I had kept wings level with the towplane who had lost the horizon...so I was in perfect formation.....it was only the change in the sound that gave it away.

Other clubs had the set up to coddle new pilots along and that was okay too.
 
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I would love to have access to some of the true immersive commercial simulators. For me, a lot of the enjoyment of being a pilot was not only the scenery and such of course, but equally (if not admittedly perhaps more than equally), the technical stuff. The nuts and bolts of operating the aircraft, finessing maneuvers, the moment of leaving the ground and watching all of your instruments, making that perfect approach and greasing the landing, being challenged by the weather…that sort of stuff.

A lot of that side of the itch could easily be scratched in a high-end simulator environment.
 
B I law is qantas captain has big sim set up. Throttles rudder instruments and some fancy Dan cockpit. Never enough when you love flying

There is usually a cross over between sailplanes and sailing but I never got the bug
Give me a throttle for a boat or bike
Sailplane was the exception
 
Looks like the FO was flying.

And the preliminary report from the TSB covered by Blancolirio.

 
PrivatePilot said:
I always said that if I won the lottery or somehow came into a bunch of money I would buy a little bugsmasher of one sort or another and get back into flying.
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Two things that had me not own an aircraft.

If it is a production aircraft, you cannot do the maintenance yourself without having an AME licence. When I was instructing, if the weather was down, I'd be in the hangar wrenching on aircraft, both club and member aircraft. The full time mechanic there also worked at Transport Canada on aircraft would have me do everything, sign it off and tell me "I'm not worried, you are flying it tomorrow". Now if it is an "Experimental Aircraft", even if you did not built it, you can perform all the maintenance yourself. How does that make sense?

The cost of a hangar because I am no about to park my aircraft outside with hail, snow, etc doing a number on it.

And owning an aircraft is like owning a sailboat. It should be your number-one hobby and it consumes your life. Why I have motorcycles and sports cars; at least I can store them in my garage. The happiest days in a boat owner's life is the day he buys it and the day he sells it.

Now if I did buy an aircraft, it would be a Mooney 201 or an Extra 300 to 330 series. Two totally different aircraft with totally different purposes. A commuter aircraft like the 201 is kind of boring due to its limitations. I'll fly Air Canada and get there.

Now this is flying...
 
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