Downshifting, uncertain which gear I am in

[PLau]

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A prime example of a benefit of starting on a smaller cc bike - you get to practice what gear you should (and need to) be in.

Just practice trying to be in the low-mid range revs after a downshift and letting out the clutch as you're slowing down.

If you find yourself losing track of what gear you're in, simply count your gears as you shift until it's second nature.

 

[inreb]

A prime example of a benefit of starting on a smaller cc bike - you get to practice what gear you should (and need to) be in.

Just practice trying to be in the low-mid range revs after a downshift and letting out the clutch as you're slowing down.

If you find yourself losing track of what gear you're in, simply count your gears as you shift until it's second nature.

This would be wise to consider as smaller engines have, almost proportionally, smaller headroom.

 

[Emefef]

Your response was indicating that knowing which gear you are in doesn't matter inmost cases, relating that to the OP question and his described way to do multiple downward taps, it is implied that this is ok and also ok not knowing the gear you are on, you then in a subsequent post clarified that was no the case but I can't read post in the future so I responded accordingly. and the fact you felt the need to clarify shows that you realized it could be interpreted that way.

The GTAM BS is my judgement on people sounding like they know what they are talking about and providing the wrong information, which in this case you were, until you clarified yourself in a later post.

I am glad however that you clarified as new riders do take what we say in here seriously and we need to be careful on what we say or it can put new guys/girls in danger.

Not biggy

Perhaps my focus in the first post was too much on the argument about knowing the specific gear at all times - it's a pet peeve of mine. With my new bike, I often find myself reaching for another gear, because I'm in a different range than what I've been used to for the last 15 years. Most often, I'm wondering if I've already hit sixth when riding in traffic, although I can USUALLY remember if it's just straight acceleration up to speed
But ultimately, it doesn't matter. Relating gears to a speedometer reading can help too, but it's only additional information, not the deciding factor. What about on a hill? I'm going xx, I should be in gear y may change as you climb a hill. Feeling the need to downshift should become second nature so that the decision is not based on a calculation.
It does help new riders a lot to ride a small displacement bike with an narrow "range of usable power in each gear" (is that less 70's than powerband? We used powerband in the 80's when I started teaching...) in situations or exercises that will require a lot of shifting. This is better accomplished out of traffic, for safety, but with traffic the results can come even faster (albeit with higher risk). A track works well, but generally you'd want a smaller track with tighter turns so that the small bikes still have to shift a lot (like some go-kart tracks). When the rider's focus is on negotiating the course/exercise/traffic situation, it becomes more difficult to keep track of what gear the bike is in. The rider will naturally start to feel what works - until they're not thinking about what gear they're in, they're just shifting to a gear that's appropriate for the situation.

 

[Emefef]

I am glad however that you clarified as new riders do take what we say in here seriously and we need to be careful on what we say or it can put new guys/girls in danger.

Not biggy

Sorry for the double reply to the same post, but that is an important point, and it reminds me of how it comes up during training.

A common mistake with new riders is to pull in the clutch when preparing to downshift, click down on the shift lever, and coast for a while - maybe braking, maybe not. Often, they aren't releasing the clutch because they already know that they're still going to fast for the next gear down, and releasing the clutch is going to result in an uncomforttable and unsteady "lurch". (Then why initiate a downshift, if you were in an appropriate gear?). Sometimes, this happens on the approach to a turn, then they coast around the corner with the clutch in. This is "freewheeling". It's bad.

Pulling in the clutch and pressing down on the shifter is not downshifting. If you don't release (engage) the clutch, you're not riding in any gear, you're not under power. You're freewheeling.

A downshift isn't complete until you've released the clutch and engaged the new gear. So when we talk about tapping down on the shifter multiple times while the clutch is in, it's GENERALLY for a couple of reasons:
1) you're coming to a fairly quick stop from a higher speed, and you are not actually downshifting through the gears. The multiple taps are to get back into 1st gear as quickly as possible for when you are stopped, so that you're ready to ride away. During that stop, the clutch is pulled in (disengaged) for the entire process; or
2) You're braking quickly very quickly to a much slower speed without downshifting and you know the end result would still be a comfortable speed in first or second gear (specifically, a couple of gears lower that where you are). Even though you didn't have time for sequential downshifts, you've braked hard enough to know that you won't be in too low a gear if you do it.

Note that second example is pretty much the same as the first, but you're just coming down to a speed that's much lower, instead of right to a stop.
Both of these scenarios are for much quicker stops than normal, where the downshifting may delay proper braking. As you gain more experience, you'll find that you can smoothly downshift while braking, and you'll probably do so in all situations except real emergencies.

 

[Doctor T]

Again with this?

How is a new rider supposed to know what is the right power band is if they have no idea of the gear they are in?
Scenario = a new rider is in 5th and he has no clue, going approximately 120km/hr (ninja 250) if he needs to slow down to let's say 60 and pulls the clutch in and starts downshifting, how is he going to have a reference of "what the right powerband is" if he has no clue what gear he is on?

The way to know this is because you know that at 60km/hr your "right" powerband is in 3rd gear since the last time you were at 60km/hr you were in 3rd and now have that in your brain as a point of reference. Having a key piece of information missing like what gear you are on will make this task just a guessing game with the possibility of rear wheel lock if you don't have a slipper clutch.

Or are you suggesting to guess a gear and then as you release the clutch let's see what happens? Until a new rider has the experience and knows his/her bike well enough to do this guessing game, they NEED to know what gear they are in or are going into at all times.

If someone is up shifting then sure not so important what gear you are on, but downshifting what you are proposing is dangerous, hopeyou don't teach that in your classes.

Classic GTAM BS

I can tell my 'powerband' based on the throttle response in my right hand, which is my reference (not speed/gear). I may forget what gear I'm in, and not even know what exact speed I'm going, other than my relative speed to traffic. But I can tell in my right hand if I'm not getting enough throttle response as I'm used to (i.e. right powerband) - then I shift down. Speed/gear can vary based on inclination. I'd rather keep my eyes on the road than on the gauges anyway.

 

[Brian P]

On the track, I generally don't know what gear I'm in anywhere ... I only know how many gear changes to do (up or down) and where. Even that is dependent mostly on hearing where the revs are. (too busy to look at the tach except on straightaways)

 

[inreb]

On the street, which is like a track to me, I just roll on until I feel it running out of steam. Then I grab another gear. It's bloody brilliant. I wear ear plugs. They remove all crinkly sounds. It's pure desmo bliss in my rocker arm world. Same on the down side.

 

[-D-]

On the track, I generally don't know what gear I'm in anywhere ... I only know how many gear changes to do (up or down) and where. Even that is dependent mostly on hearing where the revs are. (too busy to look at the tach except on straightaways)

What?
I check the weather reports, stock quotes, sports, traffic...

 

[ZX600]

I can tell my 'powerband' based on the throttle response in my right hand, which is my reference (not speed/gear). I may forget what gear I'm in, and not even know what exact speed I'm going, other than my relative speed to traffic. But I can tell in my right hand if I'm not getting enough throttle response as I'm used to (i.e. right powerband) - then I shift down. Speed/gear can vary based on inclination. I'd rather keep my eyes on the road than on the gauges anyway.

On the track, I generally don't know what gear I'm in anywhere ... I only know how many gear changes to do (up or down) and where. Even that is dependent mostly on hearing where the revs are. (too busy to look at the tach except on straightaways)

Again, this conversation is in reference to the OP being a new rider and not having the practice of knowing his ranges well since he is asking the question. The only way he can know what is the right range to disengage his clutch without stalling or over reeving is by knowing his speed and gear, going 100km/hr and disengaging the clutch in first will cause a very different result as if he is going 100 km/hr and disengage the clutch in 4th - so unless you are comfortable with your bike, you need to know your speed and gear.

DO i look at the gear indicator when I am ridding? not most of the times because I know my bike well and have a good understanding of where I need to be, and If I start disengaging the clutch and feel the engine over reeving I can quickly adapt, none of these things are natural to a brand new rider.

Brian not sure why you are bringing up track? I don't think any of us really look at the gear indicator when we race (well i do sometimes just before I start braking at the end of the back straight at GB) but again this is not applicable to the OP.

It's frustrating when a new rider asks a question and people start going on a tangent about other stuff, all it does it confuse the topic so they can sound like they know what they are talking about.

Emefef I am not sure why you wrote the wall of text after quoting my posts, none of what you said is really applicable to what i wrote or to what the OP asked. But sure.... go on

 

[inreb]

Does everybody agree on what disengaging a clutch means? Because frustrated.

 

[Riceburner]

OP go one gear at a time. Get used to the feel of the engine when it's in the power. Does your bike have a tach? Use it if you do to be in the correct rev range. I never know what gear I'm in except at the bottom and top. At top gear on the highway I know what RPMs I'm at for a certain speed. The rest of the time it's by feel and once in a while I'll look at the tach.

 

[Riceburner]

Does everybody agree on what disengaging a clutch means? Because frustrated.

To me, it means pulling in the clutch lever to disengage contact between the clutch plates.

 

[inreb]

To me, it means pulling in the clutch lever to disengage contact between the clutch plates.

That makes the most sense to me, but of course I also walk upright. Reading of some other esteemed members would indicate otherwise.

 

[Doctor T]

Again, this conversation is in reference to the OP being a new rider and not having the practice of knowing his ranges well since he is asking the question. The only way he can know what is the right range to disengage his clutch without stalling or over reeving is by knowing his speed and gear, going 100km/hr and disengaging the clutch in first will cause a very different result as if he is going 100 km/hr and disengage the clutch in 4th - so unless you are comfortable with your bike, you need to know your speed and gear.

DO i look at the gear indicator when I am ridding? not most of the times because I know my bike well and have a good understanding of where I need to be, and If I start disengaging the clutch and feel the engine over reeving I can quickly adapt, none of these things are natural to a brand new rider.

Brian not sure why you are bringing up track? I don't think any of us really look at the gear indicator when we race (well i do sometimes just before I start braking at the end of the back straight at GB) but again this is not applicable to the OP.

It's frustrating when a new rider asks a question and people start going on a tangent about other stuff, all it does it confuse the topic so they can sound like they know what they are talking about.

Emefef I am not sure why you wrote the wall of text after quoting my posts, none of what you said is really applicable to what i wrote or to what the OP asked. But sure.... go on

The OP does drive a manual car though, so I would assume he knows basics like dropping from 4th to 1st at 100kph is not a good idea. As well, probably basic gear/speed guidelines and powerband. But I could be wrong, sure...

 

[mbroyda]

wow, is it off season already??? usually arguments about proper downshifting technique dont start until its well bellow zero

 

[Emefef]

Emefef I am not sure why you wrote the wall of text after quoting my posts, none of what you said is really applicable to what i wrote or to what the OP asked. But sure.... go on

...Because
A) you rightly pointed out the new riders pay close attention to what we post, so I explained my position fully; and
B) I ensured the detail was there so it wouldn't require clarification like my first post.

I'm not sure the OP's experience with his bike, but your responses are as if he just hopped on his first bike for his first ride. I'm assuming, which could be wrong, he's semi-comfortable on the bike and he knows the shifting points to get up into the higher gears. He simply loses track if he taps down a couple of times. If the discussion was going to be limited to exactly thats scenario, it would have been short "DON"T DO THAT".
You've asserted that a new rider needs to know what gear they're in all the time, to know if it's the right gear. Several posters are disagreeing with that. Whether it's the OP's question or not, it's a related topic and an engaging discussion.

I know why Brian brought up the track. I was taught the same thing but I don't have nearly the experience necessary to start offering advice about the track. Once I learned the track, I knew braking and shifting and turning points and how many shifts I was going to make - what gear I was in didn't matter.

 

[Emefef]

That makes the most sense to me, but of course I also walk upright. Reading of some other esteemed members would indicate otherwise.

Is it backwards somewhere? Was it me? You pull in the lever to disengage the clutch. You release it to engage the clutch. Honest, I know how it works. If I made a mistake in one of my overly long posts it's only 'cuz I'm supposed to be working and I rushed.

 

[ZX600]

To me, it means pulling in the clutch lever to disengage contact between the clutch plates.

He is trying to make a smart *** jab at the way I write

 

[d7cgo60n]

Downshifting gracefully is as simple as following the advice above. I almost always go down 1 gear at a time except for 2 situations:

- Rolled into a town while still in top gear with the engine running very low RPM (V-twin torque will allow that) but then come up on a hill or something that needs more power, then I might dunk it down 2-3 gears at once, but it's still easy to keep a mental note of roughly what gear you're in at that point since you started in the top hole, so yeah...count backwards.

- Had to make a rapid stop, IE traffic light just changed or whatever. In that case, ideally, try to accomplish the downshift from potentially top gear back to 1/N while you're still moving at least a little (transmissions on bikes hate shifting while not moving at all), or if stopping was the priority and there was no opportunity to complete the downshifts before you had your feet down...you can eventually accomplish a complete top-to-1 downshift while stopped if need be. Sometimes slipping the clutch a little between gears will help.

I think your issue comes from the training at the riders training courses - I know they engrain the "bang bang bang" your foot on the shifter method of downshifting in those courses - my wife did the same thing when she came fresh out of it as well, but that was only a method to be used during rapid stops. It's now time to put that behind you and add some gracefullness to downshifting and toss the "bang bang bang" method out the window - it was just for learning to ingrain the "you must get back to first gear while slowing down" thing into your head during the course..

Just be careful to make sure you're matching your gear to your speed properly otherwise dumping the clutch in too low a gear can easily cause the rear to break traction..and bad things can happen.

Lol the "bang bang bang" method.

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[CalamariGSX-R]

Guys

Hopefully this wasn't asked before. Obviously its a noob question.

Upshifting is very easy and it is very easy to fly through gears from 1st to 6th. However, when slowing down I dont downshift through every gear; instead I brake and then downshift several gears at a time. As a result I am often unsure which gear I am in.

Anyone else have this "issue"? On a manual car its non existent, as every gear has its own position, on a bike different story.

Suggestions from experts welcome of course.

I didnt read all six pages of the post but why would you ever click down more than one gear at a time!

Wrong Philosophy!

Shift down one at a time Only and Always!

Dont ever skip past a gear.

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