Your guys should take a course in material science and understand the term what "work hardening" means! What do you think airplanes have to perform schedule x-rays to determine the safety of the wings!!
So I bought a bike with a dent in frame and cant get safety
- Thread starter DjEyeQ
- Start date
Juxtapose material science with hardscrabble 20ft. flips and a good dose of chest pounding subsidized with $1.60 will get you a medium double double. Here's what I know: my steel framed bike fell over in the garage putting a good crease into the right side back down tube above the swingarm pivot. No worries. If that was an aluminum frame with the same crease I would be super concerned.
Work hardening or strain hardening (as I know it) most likely occured in this situation. But without doing a ton a math and knowing the exact material the frame is made of it would be hard to guaranty the structural integrity of the frame. At least from my standpoint (not knowing much about the bike in question and having not studied metallurgy or physics in years.)
My understanding was strain hardening occurs when the material experiences elastic deformation not plastic. I very well may be wrong. Its been a while
But wouldn't the plastic deformation decrease the structural integrity of the tube as a whole? The aluminum itself may be stronger in that area but the physical shape (ie the deformation of the tube) would decrease the overall strength? (Like the beer can example)
Personally I don't have enough knowledge to make an informed decision about whether the dent is fine or not. Nor if I was actually an engineer would I put my stamp on it.
Last edited:
HTA Regulation 611, Schedule 6
(5) No frame member shall, on a visual inspection, appear bent or cracked or have loose or missing connecting fasteners that may degrade the safety of the vehicle or jeopardize its handling characteristics.
(6) Where a frame component has been repaired, it shall have been repaired in a proper manner.
Now the problem with this part of the Safety Standards Regulation, and with most honestly, is though the first part seems very cut and dry (No bends, No cracks) The regulation then becomes very subjective in regards to what constitutes degradation of safety and handling characteristics. So it's left to the technician to use his best judgement.
-Is the Technician a metallurgist? Not likely
-Does he know the alloy and how it reacts to deformation? Maybe, or maybe he thinks he does. (read it on a forum)
-Is he a weekend track guy who has seen similar frame damage be completely safe? Possibly
All of the above factors into weather or not he writes the safety but TBH I doubt a conviction would be handed down if someone wrote a safety with that dent, it's just too easy to argue the structure has retained sufficient strength despite the dent; unless it collapsed on the road; like a week later; but realistically that's not gonna happen.
I work in auto repair and believe me when i tell you, there is SO MUCH GREY AREA in regards to safety standards. Discrepancies in the interpretation of the Regulations between Tech A and Tech B in the same shop can be enormous. In 15 years I know of just one fine handed out to anyone I have ever known in the trade. Thats a lot of people and a lot of shops, and the fine wasn't much... lets just say I've had larger speeding tickets.
OP, Take his kind offer of $800 before he changes his mind and get a new frame if it makes you more comfortable. You take him to court you will lose if he does even the slightest bit of research; not to mention the fact that you KNEW the dent was there
P.S. people usually misunderstand the FACT that it is a MINIMUM Safety Standards Certificate. It is not a warranty or statement of mechanical excellence.
Work hardening aluminum by bending like the op?
Last edited:
is that like the common laymans expression of "metal fatigue" ? that is one reason would never ever feel safe riding a vintage bike, would never chance it. Though I have a passion for all bikes cruisers the most. I see how barn yard finds look after restoration but how can they insure against metal fatigue, nope sticking to newer bikes for certain, the Jay Leno's and American pickers can keep the old knuckle heads.
Last edited:
This "newbike" guy is for sure the seller of the bike. Dude, just give him back $2,000 and call it a day.[/QUOTE]
LOL, WHAT???? I'm the guy that sold him this bike???? Dude, I'm a 37 yr old firefighter/Paramedic who lives in Cobourg and I ride a 2013 BMR S1000rr. I don't even know who this guy is!!!! I just gave some advice to try to help him out. Now I'm the guy who "just joined this site"?????? Buddy, I've been a member of this site for many years and just thought I could help this guy out. Better yet, I hope he listens to the ones who are saying take him to small claims court, and then he can loose another $1000 (and thats if the other guy goes self-represented).
This place can really be a soap-opera. lol. No wonder people are afraid to chime in and give some helpful advice. lol
LOL, WHAT???? I'm the guy that sold him this bike???? Dude, I'm a 37 yr old firefighter/Paramedic who lives in Cobourg and I ride a 2013 BMR S1000rr. I don't even know who this guy is!!!! I just gave some advice to try to help him out. Now I'm the guy who "just joined this site"?????? Buddy, I've been a member of this site for many years and just thought I could help this guy out. Better yet, I hope he listens to the ones who are saying take him to small claims court, and then he can loose another $1000 (and thats if the other guy goes self-represented).
This place can really be a soap-opera. lol. No wonder people are afraid to chime in and give some helpful advice. lol
:lmao:
Are you the guy who sold the OP this bike?
He is a "good guy" ? You can't be serious. He took advantage of someone who wasn't very knowledgeable and told them that a safety wouldn't be a problem. Then when it became clear that it would be a problem he won't take the bike back. That is not an honest person.
And your advice to patch it up with whatever you can? :lmao:
OP this is what i'd do, and i dealt with someone who ****ed up my bike and didnt want to pay up.
Tell him he can give you the full amount back and try to scam the next guy, or you will take him to court. You will not only be seeking the 4K that you paid for the bike but also court costs, and any work missed as a result. One day to file, another to do some paperwork, third day to show up to court at a cost of 500$ per day since thats what a day of work costs you
If he's still hesitant to give you the money tell him that you'll return it to him piece by piece through his front window
BTW 4 k for a 2003 600rr that was cartwheeled? :lmao:
Again, I am NOT the guy who sold him this bike. If at anytime ANYONE doubts this, please private message me and I will give you my personal phone number to call and you will see I'm not. As for your advice to this guy, it just goes to show how "educated" you are with Civil Law and you are just going to make him waste MORE money. You CANNOT seek "time away from work" in Civil Court for things like this. Even if he was successful (which I guarantee he would not be), the ONLY other thing he can make claim on is his court costs. If the other guy wins (which he would) he too would get court costs. These costs also include any fees for representation (which is where the real money is). As for threatening to throw it thru his window, you are now advising him to commit a criminal act and to give the guy prior warning of it so he can properly document it. This is all FAR from good advice to give. No offense bud, but people come on here to get HELPFUL advice and not listen to rambling from someone who by the sounds of it would have trouble spelling their own name. I'm not saying this to start a sand-box fight, I am saying this in defense of you thinking I sold him the bike (lol), and your FAR from helpful advice to him.
Want some LEGAL advice?????? The ONLY way he will prove success in court is if he can prove the prior owner was "deceptive" with this bike and "hid" damages. Other than that it falls under the "buyer beware" and "as-is unless otherwise stated or implied with warranty" clause. That dent couldn't be more obvious and the buyer should have done his due-diligence first before buying it. I hate to see people get screwed and I would love to see him made whole. All you can do in situations like this is learn from it, and wait for Karma to get this seller in the *** like it always does with people like this.
Here lemme highlight what i wrote since reading comprehension isn't your thing, stick to selling junk to people
"OP this is what i'd do, and i dealt with someone who ****ed up my bike and didnt want to pay up.
Tell him he can give you the full amount back and try to scam the next guy, or you will take him to court. You will not only be seeking the 4K that you paid for the bike but also court costs, and any work missed as a result. One day to file, another to do some paperwork, third day to show up to court at a cost of 500$ per day since thats what a day of work costs you :wink:
If he's still hesitant to give you the money tell him that you'll return it to him piece by piece through his front window"
Often bluffing will scare the **** out of people since very few people actually know what you can and cannot claim in small claims court.
It worked for me, it can work for him.
great advice. 
What you call "bluffing", the Police and Courts call a criminal offense. You can't just threaten people. Regardless, it worked for you, so it must work right? I won't even get into the whole "there are some people out there ya just might not want to threaten" thing because their first reaction might not be to ask Police for help. When someone comes on here looking for direction with what they should do, and you tell them what YOU would do, it is suggestive that you are telling them to do the same. He can threaten the guy all he wants, or play any "scare tactics" he wants. I was merely saying that LEGALLY SPEAKING your options were uneducated and simply would not work.
Now back to what I normally do daily.......................Would you like to buy some great property in Florida??? lol
What you call "bluffing", the Police and Courts call a criminal offense. You can't just threaten people. Regardless, it worked for you, so it must work right? I won't even get into the whole "there are some people out there ya just might not want to threaten" thing because their first reaction might not be to ask Police for help. When someone comes on here looking for direction with what they should do, and you tell them what YOU would do, it is suggestive that you are telling them to do the same. He can threaten the guy all he wants, or play any "scare tactics" he wants. I was merely saying that LEGALLY SPEAKING your options were uneducated and simply would not work. Now back to what I normally do daily.......................Would you like to buy some great property in Florida??? lol
Am I missing something here?????? This dent was in PLAIN VIEW for anyone to see. I agree it sucks, but that is the ENTIRE REASON the "buyer beware" clause exists. Its not like the seller had a knocking engine that he hid with heavy oil, or he claimed the bike has never been down and then later found out it was. Like I said, I AGREE and feel sorry that this guy bought a bike and now is having problems. That is why you don't just hand over money to people without doing all your work first.
I gave him LEGALLY SPEAKING, helpful advice. I chose NOT to simply banter the guy with "why did you pay $4000 for a bike that has been cartwheeled", as I didn't see how that would be "helpful".
To the person who bought this bike with dented frame.........................do whatever you feel is best. If you doubt anything anyone here is saying, just go speak to a lawyer for 10 mins and get their advice and let us know what he says. Like I said, if it were me, I would GRAB THIS GUYS $800 while its still being offered, and just ride the bike the way it is, and I'd fix it over the winter when you have more time and can save up a few more dollars for a new frame. All the best to you with this. Some of the biggest lessons we learn in life are done so the "hard way".
I gave him LEGALLY SPEAKING, helpful advice. I chose NOT to simply banter the guy with "why did you pay $4000 for a bike that has been cartwheeled", as I didn't see how that would be "helpful".
To the person who bought this bike with dented frame.........................do whatever you feel is best. If you doubt anything anyone here is saying, just go speak to a lawyer for 10 mins and get their advice and let us know what he says. Like I said, if it were me, I would GRAB THIS GUYS $800 while its still being offered, and just ride the bike the way it is, and I'd fix it over the winter when you have more time and can save up a few more dollars for a new frame. All the best to you with this. Some of the biggest lessons we learn in life are done so the "hard way".
Last edited:
I've seen enough Judge Judy to predict "as is" means exactly that when it comes to purchasing anything really.
It's not like it was concealed or hidden.
Now the purchaser is concerned because they couldn't get it safety and now it's made them worry about riding the bike at all.
The OP can't get their money back.
Seems like the seller understands they got full buck for a questionable ride and was willing to give $800.
Is that fair?
Considering they don't have to give anything back, I'd say take what you can get and make the best of it.
Will it take $1500 to replace the frame? Maybe.
But that is part of the lesson here. It's not the seller's job to make it right. It's the OP that paid for it.
They have some options. The OP felt is was OK at time of purchase so, find a place to get a safety and ride it.
If the OP has buyers remorse and doubts. Get a frame. If you get the seller to give you $800, consider yourself lucky and move on.
It's not like it was concealed or hidden.
Now the purchaser is concerned because they couldn't get it safety and now it's made them worry about riding the bike at all.
The OP can't get their money back.
Seems like the seller understands they got full buck for a questionable ride and was willing to give $800.
Is that fair?
Considering they don't have to give anything back, I'd say take what you can get and make the best of it.
Will it take $1500 to replace the frame? Maybe.
But that is part of the lesson here. It's not the seller's job to make it right. It's the OP that paid for it.
They have some options. The OP felt is was OK at time of purchase so, find a place to get a safety and ride it.
If the OP has buyers remorse and doubts. Get a frame. If you get the seller to give you $800, consider yourself lucky and move on.
When did 7 months become many years.......
MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
7 months!. ... LoLs...
No offense intended newbike, but it sounded like you were taking the side of the seller.... a little bit too hard...
Yup.
Buyer put himself in a tough spot. I'd do like many suggested and take the $800 to lessen the blow.
Older bikes always need a bunch of work anyway. Get the new frame and enjoy your new ride.
It's just money.
MarcosSantiago
Well-known member
Do you need to inform the MTO if you swap the frame?
First and foremost: chasing this through courts is the (2nd) dumbest decision you'll make with regards to your situation. It's lose-lose. Your time will be gone, and small claims has no balls to enforce judgements. You'll waste the rest of this short riding season and you still won't have a bike, and you probably won't see a penny even if you do get a judgement. Waste of time.
First best advice in the thread: find someone to safety it, or cover it with a sticker and then safety it, and ride the bike. Those of us who have been around long enough have seen much worse, especially on track and race bikes that get abused 10x more than a street bike. Don't let the armchair engineers scare you, that **** is fine dawg. Cost of solution: $3 sticker and $50 safety.
Second best advice: find a used frame for $300-500, drop the bike off to frekeyguy (2 posts above) and have it fixed. I've swapped frames on similar bikes, never took more than about 8 hours. A pro probably does it even quicker. Cost of solution: under a grand.
First best advice in the thread: find someone to safety it, or cover it with a sticker and then safety it, and ride the bike. Those of us who have been around long enough have seen much worse, especially on track and race bikes that get abused 10x more than a street bike. Don't let the armchair engineers scare you, that **** is fine dawg. Cost of solution: $3 sticker and $50 safety.
Second best advice: find a used frame for $300-500, drop the bike off to frekeyguy (2 posts above) and have it fixed. I've swapped frames on similar bikes, never took more than about 8 hours. A pro probably does it even quicker. Cost of solution: under a grand.
:lol: get real c'mon... why would you ever willingly involve the MTO in anything?
