I guess I and most of a continent packed full of more riders would beg to differ. Mentoring takes mentors....there's some but not enough for all riders so then with your anti-nanny stance riders would be waiting for the bottleneck to clear before they can ride. In effect you'd be denying them the opportunity to ride by proxy by creating this bottleneck? I don't see graduated licensing as nannying...I see it as a sensible attitude brought about many decades of advice from more experienced riders and the best argument for it is that it appears to work well where it is instituted.
Advantages and disadvantages of graduated licensing?
- Thread starter jc100
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I guess I and most of a continent packed full of more riders would beg to differ. Mentoring takes mentors....there's some but not enough for all riders so then with your anti-nanny stance riders would be waiting for the bottleneck to clear before they can ride. In effect you'd be denying them the opportunity to ride by proxy by creating this bottleneck? I don't see graduated licensing as nannying...I see it as a sensible attitude brought about many decades of advice from more experienced riders and the best argument for it is that it appears to work well where it is instituted.
Given that the majority of prospective riders now take a course, that means there are an awful lot of people around to teach them.
Nannying, if it doesn't target the right issues, is a pointless exercise. That's not a sensible attitude; it's a waste of resources.
"Nannying" is a bit of a catch all/trendy phrase. It seems to suggest that an individual always knows best. Are you nannied when you go to the doctor and he or she prescribes something that you didn't choose yourself? How come the prevalent advice from nearly all experienced riders to young riders is "get something smaller and more forgiving to learn on"...I'd say that was mentoring and thus the advice is sage and far, far from nannying.
I'm saying "nannying", as in legislating decisions that should be left up to the individual. We have become far too much of a "nanny state." Too many laws have been enacted, that only typically come into play AFTER an incident occurs, with the intent of altering behaviour so that the incident doesn't occur; a foolish position.
You have the choice of going to that doctor. It isn't legislated that you must. If you don't agree with that doctor's findings, then you can go to another. When it's advice, from someone else, you similarly have the ability to use your own discretion. By training people we give them an ability to make an educated decision.
Each new rider/driver should have to go through a proper course. The 2 days of riding around some pylons to learn how to ride is great if you've never riddin a bike before but that shouldn't allow you on public roads. It should be followed up with a course that's like the M2 exit where they follow you on the road (I think that's what they do I didn't do the course so I'm just guessing) then to a track school so they can actually go around a corner without panicing when they're at a 15 degree lean angle. Same with people in cars, take them to a big open skid pad and have them do REAL evasive manouvers and teach them the limits of their car so they don't do 25kmh when it rains or snows a 1/2 cm. Before graduated liscencing there were alot fewer cars and most of the people were from this country so they had been on our roads with thier parents driving and had seen how to behave such as getting on the damn 401 at speed.
IMHO...the people who are crying Nannying, are the people who are going to be affected by this type of new system now, OR, are people who think the government is trying to ruin their personal lives at every step.
It is so far from the actual truth here.
It is doing you nothing more than possibly saving your life and perhaps that of others too, who you may or may not collide with in your learning curve.....no?
I am living proof of what happens to an innocent person who while sitting at a red light gets rearended by some idiot who shouldn't have been allowed to get behind the wheel of a car! I was in my early 40's when the accident happened, I have worked 1, yes 1 year since that time, I'm 53 now!! I have 3 herniated discs in my neck one being fused and plated, 4 screws and a visit later in life to repair the other two when they get so bad, pain wise that meds won't help any more.
So, what am I supposed to do with the rest of my life? I can no loger work a job as any other person can due to pain and med issues. I can ride a bike which funny enough is the only thiong that used to not hurt me but it is now starting to get very painful after a few hours, so this is soon to be taken away from me too.
So, please don't preach to me that it's your right to be allowed to ride or drive a vehicle just because you can afford one. Everyone should be tested regularly every so many years to get the bad habits sorted out as well as going through the graduated liciencing program outlined above.
Sorry if it makes your life a bit uncomfortable for a few years while you earn the right to get to that litre bike or 500 horse power car that you are jonesing after. Maybe you would prefer to trade places with me? I can guarrentee you I'll trade you!!!
Nannying...give me a break!!!!
It is so far from the actual truth here.
It is doing you nothing more than possibly saving your life and perhaps that of others too, who you may or may not collide with in your learning curve.....no?
I am living proof of what happens to an innocent person who while sitting at a red light gets rearended by some idiot who shouldn't have been allowed to get behind the wheel of a car! I was in my early 40's when the accident happened, I have worked 1, yes 1 year since that time, I'm 53 now!! I have 3 herniated discs in my neck one being fused and plated, 4 screws and a visit later in life to repair the other two when they get so bad, pain wise that meds won't help any more.
So, what am I supposed to do with the rest of my life? I can no loger work a job as any other person can due to pain and med issues. I can ride a bike which funny enough is the only thiong that used to not hurt me but it is now starting to get very painful after a few hours, so this is soon to be taken away from me too.
So, please don't preach to me that it's your right to be allowed to ride or drive a vehicle just because you can afford one. Everyone should be tested regularly every so many years to get the bad habits sorted out as well as going through the graduated liciencing program outlined above.
Sorry if it makes your life a bit uncomfortable for a few years while you earn the right to get to that litre bike or 500 horse power car that you are jonesing after. Maybe you would prefer to trade places with me? I can guarrentee you I'll trade you!!!
Nannying...give me a break!!!!
That is truly unfortunate and I truly wish you nothing less than a miraculous recovery and all the best. However, I don't see how graduated licensing protects others, like you, from serious injury or death. Plowing into the back of someone has more to do with a lack of sufficient care and attention for God only knows what reason. Driving skill and experience really has nothing to do with it. Whether you start a new driver off at once or gradually, it just delays the inevitable mistakes one is likely to make. Just because you walk before you run, doesn't mean you're not going to trip and fall when you're walking or running - **** happens. All you can do is give new drivers as much skill as possible before they venture out onto the road. Mandatory and comprehensive driver training would make more sense. People make mistakes and they have no one to blame but themselves. Graduated licensing (Nannying), only shifts/obscures/transfers the blame. Seriously, when will "little Johnny or Jane" ever be ready to drive safely? Is it appropriate for Government to dictate when an individual is ready to drive or should the individual? If I have an accident on a 400 series highway or at night, I'm going to come down hard on Government, because they told my I was ready, when in fact, I was not.
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Actually I wouldn't be effected, as I've had my full M since 1984 and I don't think that the government is screwing up our lives, except where they are making laws based on knee jerk reactions to one-off incidents. I also think that people should prove that they have the ability to handle a vehicle, via proper testing and training, so your "shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car person" might not have been, under my model.
Next.
Yes I agree but, if you are on a machine that is within that level of your skill is what is important as well. There is much less chance of having an out of control accident when the machine you are on has less power than what you are capable of safely handling at that time...no?
I agree freak accident will always happen, nothing can irradicate them, but with better controls, they hopefully would be greatly reduced.
In my case, if he had seen the red light and two other vehicles, not motorcycles sitting at the light he wouldn't have plowing to me. Being aware of your surroundings is part and parcel of riding, driving as is a learned skill. Top courses will require you to say everything that you see as you are driving around to the instructor so to proove you have actually seen all around you that could possibly cause an incident that would interact with you.
Yes some people are born with skills and some can't even think of learning the same skills, but it's not a huge thing to ask of everyone to try and learn these skills is it? Just think of the benefits of having those skills.
Also, we need a much stronger judicial system to deal with people who think they can do anything other than drive or ride their vehicle when doing do, such as cell phone, make up, shaving, reading.....you name it......stiffer fines for all driving offences, and fines set to ones earnings as well. That way a well off person who gets a $250 fine doesn't just choke it up to a day's driving. Make it a $2500 for that individual, then maybe he or she will take notice...?
I just think our system of driving and testing is a joke.......I got my liceince the day I turned 16 back in the day when it was one written test and a drive around the block and here you go little Johnny.....have at it! I got stuck in a snow bank while on my test after the instructor insisted I parallel park in a specific spot. I objected and he said if I do get stuck in the correct position in the spot he would push me out. Guess what....he pushed! I got 98% on the test and went away laughing! I later moved back to England where I failed twice thinking I knew it all. Their testing is a lot stricter than ours and you get one mistake and game's over! Failed! As it should be here too. England has a graduated system cc wise and it works well. IMHO. Nobody complains...it's just the way it is and everyone accepts it.....what else can you do if that is the way it is.....either accept it or take the bus!
Sorry to go on about it but it is a good system and it works.
I agree freak accident will always happen, nothing can irradicate them, but with better controls, they hopefully would be greatly reduced.
In my case, if he had seen the red light and two other vehicles, not motorcycles sitting at the light he wouldn't have plowing to me. Being aware of your surroundings is part and parcel of riding, driving as is a learned skill. Top courses will require you to say everything that you see as you are driving around to the instructor so to proove you have actually seen all around you that could possibly cause an incident that would interact with you.
Yes some people are born with skills and some can't even think of learning the same skills, but it's not a huge thing to ask of everyone to try and learn these skills is it? Just think of the benefits of having those skills.
Also, we need a much stronger judicial system to deal with people who think they can do anything other than drive or ride their vehicle when doing do, such as cell phone, make up, shaving, reading.....you name it......stiffer fines for all driving offences, and fines set to ones earnings as well. That way a well off person who gets a $250 fine doesn't just choke it up to a day's driving. Make it a $2500 for that individual, then maybe he or she will take notice...?
I just think our system of driving and testing is a joke.......I got my liceince the day I turned 16 back in the day when it was one written test and a drive around the block and here you go little Johnny.....have at it! I got stuck in a snow bank while on my test after the instructor insisted I parallel park in a specific spot. I objected and he said if I do get stuck in the correct position in the spot he would push me out. Guess what....he pushed! I got 98% on the test and went away laughing! I later moved back to England where I failed twice thinking I knew it all. Their testing is a lot stricter than ours and you get one mistake and game's over! Failed! As it should be here too. England has a graduated system cc wise and it works well. IMHO. Nobody complains...it's just the way it is and everyone accepts it.....what else can you do if that is the way it is.....either accept it or take the bus!
Sorry to go on about it but it is a good system and it works.
it is not just motorcycles......this should apply to cars also.
we seem to use money as a deterrent from fast cars and bikes.
if you are young....and want a fast car or bike, you are going to pay through the nose for the car/bike and insurance.
the reality of it is that young people today have the money.
i am one of them.
3k a year for insurance, no problem!
9k for a bike, no problem!
was i truly ready for a 600SS at 21, no.
but did i think i was, Yes.
no body wants to hear stories, and i am sure the person reading this thinks i am nuts and they are a better rider and will take all the precautions needed, you won't.
there are stats to prove it, i am still paying for it.
i am 27 now. if i had to do it all over all again it would have been nice to have a system in place to not allow me the chance not to fail.
having said that.....here is a thought.
the reason that so many new riders jump on 600SS is not so much the power, it is the looks.
if any manufacturer made a nice looking 400,500 bike that looked like a 600SS more people would buy them first.
Oh wait....some of them did. Ever hear of the 125 or 250 ?? Of course you have.
I would have started with making a 400,500 look nicer as i happen to think 250 and 125 are too small.
we seem to use money as a deterrent from fast cars and bikes.
if you are young....and want a fast car or bike, you are going to pay through the nose for the car/bike and insurance.
the reality of it is that young people today have the money.
i am one of them.
3k a year for insurance, no problem!
9k for a bike, no problem!
was i truly ready for a 600SS at 21, no.
but did i think i was, Yes.
no body wants to hear stories, and i am sure the person reading this thinks i am nuts and they are a better rider and will take all the precautions needed, you won't.
there are stats to prove it, i am still paying for it.
i am 27 now. if i had to do it all over all again it would have been nice to have a system in place to not allow me the chance not to fail.
having said that.....here is a thought.
the reason that so many new riders jump on 600SS is not so much the power, it is the looks.
if any manufacturer made a nice looking 400,500 bike that looked like a 600SS more people would buy them first.
Oh wait....some of them did. Ever hear of the 125 or 250 ?? Of course you have.
I would have started with making a 400,500 look nicer as i happen to think 250 and 125 are too small.
I find it ironic that an M1 holder is restricted from travelling on 400 series highways, but unrestricted from travelling on anything else. How many accidents do you hear about on 400 series highways compared to city streets and rural roads? With an M1, the new rider can travel down a road at 60-90km/h where other vehicles are turning left, right, entering and exiting the roadway - the most volatile driving environment imaginable.........it's absolutely retarded! The most you have to worry about on a 400 series highway is falling asleep - LOL! Everyone's travelling in the same direction, at the same rate of speed, more or less.
IMO, all the graduated licensing system will do is send a driver into a faster and more perilous driving environment, unprepared, with new distractions (friends) they've never had to deal with before. They're more likely to crash faster and harder. Decades ago, when I lived in Calgary, kids got their learner's permit when they were 14 and qualified for a full licence when they reached the age of 16. Back then, we prepared our kids for the world, instead of child-proofing it. Coddling is for young children, not young adults. A Nanny state does just that. We need to get back to responsibility and accountability for ones own actions. Otherwise, whether you're 14 or 24, you're going to make the same mistakes starting out.
IMO, all the graduated licensing system will do is send a driver into a faster and more perilous driving environment, unprepared, with new distractions (friends) they've never had to deal with before. They're more likely to crash faster and harder. Decades ago, when I lived in Calgary, kids got their learner's permit when they were 14 and qualified for a full licence when they reached the age of 16. Back then, we prepared our kids for the world, instead of child-proofing it. Coddling is for young children, not young adults. A Nanny state does just that. We need to get back to responsibility and accountability for ones own actions. Otherwise, whether you're 14 or 24, you're going to make the same mistakes starting out.
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Yes, quite ironic given that there are none of the usual things, on a 400 series highway, that traditionally result in collisions (ie. oncoming traffic, intersections, lights, streetcar tracks.....). Highways are probably the safest roads on which people routinely travel.
I agree with the above, but the penilties for poor driving or riding is resulting in more deaths now a days as machines get almost supersonic power and speed wise.
Plus how can you say that graduated liciencing will result in being thrust into a more periless driving environment unprepared? That is exactly what it is teaching you to be prepared for. Same as education....understand this level so you have the tools to move up to the next level.
When learning to drive I too thought the same thing about the highways.....my dad thought that the highway was the wqorst part ???? We're all going the same diriection and the only thing is to merge into trafic at speed and learn to correctly change lanes? How hard could it be? So, why do we hear so much about highway deaths? It's because of the speeds and someone not either knowing how to deal with the highway situation or being distracted. Then again...it could be the fact that little Johnny wants to get to his diestination faster than anyone else????
Plus how can you say that graduated liciencing will result in being thrust into a more periless driving environment unprepared? That is exactly what it is teaching you to be prepared for. Same as education....understand this level so you have the tools to move up to the next level.
When learning to drive I too thought the same thing about the highways.....my dad thought that the highway was the wqorst part ???? We're all going the same diriection and the only thing is to merge into trafic at speed and learn to correctly change lanes? How hard could it be? So, why do we hear so much about highway deaths? It's because of the speeds and someone not either knowing how to deal with the highway situation or being distracted. Then again...it could be the fact that little Johnny wants to get to his diestination faster than anyone else????
400 series highways only appear to be more dangerous because of the severity of the crashes when they occassionally do occur - like a plane crash - shock and awe, people died.......big surprise. There are also a lot of "big Johnnys" who are quite skilled, experienced, fast and very aggressive. There are lots of "soccer moms" out there too, conversing with "chatty Kathy" in the passenger seat, on the phone or by text. Then theres "professional moms" putting on makeup. These people are our role models for beginners. Now, instead of a careless or dangerous driving charge, you get a slap on the wrist and token fine for using a device while driving. Instead of CC dangerous driving, you get HTA 172, a slap on the wrist in comparison. More coddling, lesser consequences and accountability and more dangerous drivers. Do you ever notice how the old 18 is now the new 30? People need to grow up.
Venom01
Well-known member
Well the only prob I see here is while you may be more comfortable and confident on a bike there is A LOT of people who aren't and are still going to get their license. Take me and my brother. We were both like ducks to water with our bikes however we both have seen many people in the course who were just weren't meant to bike. The problem is how do you meet both types of people in the middle? Personally I like the way the do it in most of Europe. Displacement to you experience. Also courses that are longer and more involved to truly make sure you know how to handle your bike + road awareness. To this day, every new season I'm talking to new bikers that have no clue about the basics such as counter steering. In fact most people think that when I'm talking about counter steering that I'm pulling their leg. If you are taking a course then there is no excuse for that. So in my opinion the whole system for getting your M is flawed.
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There just seems utter common sense thinking about riders progressing from less powerful to more powerful machines over a period of time to develop skills. Worked well for Rossi it seems and most all other car and bike racers for example. If we called it an apprenticeship would it make things better perhaps?
Also just as an aside...making an educated choice requires having an education...some might argue that the education we're talking about is a combination of rider courses and time spent in the saddle not just courses alone. Look at pilot training, you're only allowed to progress once you've logged so many hours (and in simpler to then more complicated aircraft). The reasoning behind that is so that you get to experience many of the variables of flying. I don't see any difference between that and motorcycle training. Unless of course you want to be flown on your next vacation by some hotshot that aced his exams but only has a few hours behind him/her on that particular plane.
Also just as an aside...making an educated choice requires having an education...some might argue that the education we're talking about is a combination of rider courses and time spent in the saddle not just courses alone. Look at pilot training, you're only allowed to progress once you've logged so many hours (and in simpler to then more complicated aircraft). The reasoning behind that is so that you get to experience many of the variables of flying. I don't see any difference between that and motorcycle training. Unless of course you want to be flown on your next vacation by some hotshot that aced his exams but only has a few hours behind him/her on that particular plane.
I agree with you regarding SS, but for touring or cruiser bike...I would allowed them to buy 600cc's at least, you don't really want a bike revving at 7000rpm for 8 hours straight while going 110km'h.
Just because it's a cruiser, you still have all the same safety issues and power issues, plus cruisers are twice as heavy as most other machines, so now you add excess weight into the big scheme of things.
There is always someone who thinks because they ride a particualr machine that their machine style or discription doesn't fit into an overall system of liciencing...IMHO.....
Again, yes it's a hardship for some, but overall it's a win win for the whole biking community. Just think.....ins rates should fall as there will be less accidents dealing with riders...no?
There is always someone who thinks because they ride a particualr machine that their machine style or discription doesn't fit into an overall system of liciencing...IMHO.....
Again, yes it's a hardship for some, but overall it's a win win for the whole biking community. Just think.....ins rates should fall as there will be less accidents dealing with riders...no?
I'm also not talking about "book larnin'"
