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Rob MacLennan said:
The sale of the 407ETR is one of the few things, about the Harris Government, that I'm vehemently against. All that you have written indicates that it could have easily been done, under the auspices of public service and we would not only own it, but the copious amount of fees would be going to The People, rather than investors who require a profit.

So we'll own it in 99 years, from the original lease date huh? That will be 2098. Roll that number around in your head for a minute. Twenty ninety-eight. At anything, approaching current growth rates, that stretch of road will be buried under an archology or carrying commuter rail.
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Except that the government would not be charging the level of tolls that the 407ETR charges because of political pressure. Toll collection rates would languish well below what the market would bear, the province would not be collecting "copious" amounts of fees, the highway would not have been expanded as quickly and efficiently as it was under a profit-driven private sector regime, the taxpayers would be paying for all of whatever maintenance and constructions did happen out of tax funds and they would be doing it through government mechanisms that are seldom anywhere near as efficient as private sector funding and construction mechanisms, and gridlock hours on the 401 would be even worse than it already is now.
 
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SkyRider said:
the billions probably went to renovating politicians offices, ehealth scandals, countless scandalous contracts that no one knows about. lol. did we forget the 1 Bil for g8/g20? someone must've gotten really rich that week.
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And do you think that the G20 and other things you mention would not have happened if the highway operating rights had not been leased out?
 
turbodish said:
Except that the government would not be charging the level of tolls that the 407ETR charges because of political pressure. Toll collection rates would languish well below what the market would bear, the province would not be collecting "copious" amounts of fees, the highway would not have been expanded as quickly and efficiently as it was under a profit-driven private sector regime, the taxpayers would be paying for all of whatever maintenance and constructions did happen out of tax funds and they would be doing it through government mechanisms that are seldom anywhere near as efficient as private sector funding and construction mechanisms, and gridlock hours on the 401 would be even worse than it already is now.
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Except that a government run 407 wouldn't HAVE to charge those same rates in order to accomplish the same thing because, as I stated, they wouldn't be driven by the profit motive.
 
daisoman said:
Obviously I wouldn't run red lights on purpose but it happens sometimes. I was just more interested in not paying for the 407
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Maybe you should think about parking your bike and your cage. Until you have matured and are able to handle the responsibility that goes along with owning such things. If you can't pay the toll don't use the road.
 
If u guys have read my previous posts I do regularly use and pay 407. On that note I feel with Toronto has expanded so much that 401 alone cannot handle it's rush hour traffic. Also I feel that with our increasing taxes the gov't should expand the hwy or open a new hwy(407) to relief most of the traffic. It's a luxury I'm willing to spend but IMHO it should be included and not a premium. Or at least fair priced. if u look a USA hwy they toll like $1-$2 for a hwy that stretches miles and miles. That I could live with. But hey I live with this anyways
 
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Rob MacLennan said:
Except that a government run 407 wouldn't HAVE to charge those same rates in order to accomplish the same thing because, as I stated, they wouldn't be driven by the profit motive.
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Government would have to charge MORE to derive the same net outcome. Government operations are seldom ever as efficent as well-run commercial operations.
 
Turbodish... interesting posts.

Just so its clear... the Mike Harris Tories sold off the 407 to help in balancing the budget that year. The budget was so out of whack due to the enormous tax reduction that was given to the high income earners of this province. IMHO, this was extremely poor public policy... selling off public assets to finance government operations. If we ran our households like this, we would be selling off our furniture to buy groceries. It was an idiotic move, without question.

Now, on to fees for use. A study was done within the past few years that stated the fees for the 407 were "inelastic". This basically means that they can charge whatever they want for use of the highway and the volume of traffic will not diminish appreciably. So, be prepared for constantly escalating usage charges. Fees are already nearly 7x more than they were when we still owned it and the sky is the limit!

That highway was built with public funds with the aim of eliminating the tolls when the highway was paid for. The Harris "Common Sense Revolution" Tories sold it off to a foreign company, with a very poor sales contract that allowed the 407 to charge whatever they wanted and we had no say in it at all. And interestingly enough, the architects of the common sense revolution political policy are all still there, so they bear direct responsibility for this blatant rip-off of the general public and extremely poor stewardship of public assets. The privatization of the our electricity system was also a lovely legacy of the common sense revolution and now people are complaining about how high their electricity bills are. If you think that electricity rates are high now, wait to see what they are 5 years from now - and it is all due to a system that the Harris tories put in place all those years ago. Better think long and hard about voting for the Harris "lite" party in the upcoming election, because their underlying policies have not changed.
 
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ike said:
iNow, on to fees for use. A study was done within the past few years that stated the fees for the 407 were "inelastic" (an economics term.) This basically means that they can charge whatever they want for use of the highway and the volume of traffic will not diminish appreciably. So, be prepared for constantly escalating usage charges.
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Sort of, but not quite:
The sale agreement limits toll rate increases to inflation plus 2% each year for the first 15 years and to inflation after that. In addition, if certain specified traffic levels on 407-ETR are not met the province gets a penalty “claw back” or proportion of toll revenues. This seems to be an effort to discourage the concessionaire from pursuing a high toll rate/low traffic strategy, which would put more vehicles on competing free roads. The vehicle classification structure, which has single unit trucks tolled twice the car rate, and tractor-trailers three times, must be maintained.
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My god how did this turn to a political debate.
Regardless of all that I would still rather drive on the 407 for free and not get caught if I had that option and if that makes me a immature, unpatriotic, terrorist thief than that's your guys opinion. But at the end of the day I'm just trying to save a buck on my day to day life.
 
turbodish said:
Sort of, but not quite:
The sale agreement limits toll rate increases to inflation plus 2% each year for the first 15 years and to inflation after that.
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I'm interested in knowing where you got that info.... If a 3% inflation rate is built in, that means they could raise tolls by 5%/year for the first 15 years which would lead to a (very approximate) doubling of toll rates after 15 years. The current rate for cars is about five times the rate in 1999 when it was sold off - after only 12 years. Something isn't adding up!

There is an interesting write-up about the 407 on Wikipedia, including this little gem...
  • As part of a controversial plan to balance the budget, and just prior to the Harris government's re-election campaign, the highway was leased to a conglomerate of private companies in 1999 for $3.1 billion, who renamed the route 407 ETR. The company, known as 407 International Inc., is owned by a consortium of Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte (major shareholder) from Spain, Macquarie Infrastructure Group, and Montreal-based engineering firm SNC-Lavalin. The deal included a 99-year lease agreement, unlimited control over the highway and its tolls and a restriction under which the government may not build any nearby freeways which might potentially compete with 407 ETR; however, the Government maintained the ability to build a light transit system along the 407 right-of-way.
 
ike said:
Just so its clear... the Mike Harris Tories sold off the 407 to help in balancing the budget that year. The budget was so out of whack due to the enormous tax reduction that was given to the high income earners of this province. IMHO, this was extremely poor public policy... selling off public assets to finance government operations. If we ran our households like this, we would be selling off our furniture to buy groceries. It was an idiotic move, without question.
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People tend to forget the absolute mess that Bob Rae left the Province in, prior to Harris being elected. Don't; he's a Federal Liberal now. To say that the Province's financial issues were due to tax breaks for the rich is not just overly simplistic, it's just plain wrong.

And don't believe everything that you read, on Wikipedia. It's created by voluntary submissions and is frequently far from accurate, to be charitable.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Except that a government run 407 wouldn't HAVE to charge those same rates in order to accomplish the same thing because, as I stated, they wouldn't be driven by the profit motive.
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I want to agree with you but my gut tells me that you're wrong on this one. If operated with typical government "efficiency", the 407 would be a stagnant disaster. Instead of the tolls being recycled into expansion and highway improvement, they'd be wasted for years by government officials arguing over what size font should be used to print the expansion plans.

Look at the 401.. it's only what.. 40 years behind population growth? When the construction on the Mississauga corridor is done that section will only be 30 years behind population growth. For a few summers i did the commute from Milton to near Pearson (before Milton exploded and traffic is MUCH worse now) and after 4 months it was the drive, not the job, that burned me out.

I dislike how expensive the 407 is but it's clear that many people are willing to pay it. The fact that the 407 is actively and aggressively being expanded while the rest of the 400 series highways lag far, far behind creates a market where the 407 (and its rates) are a viable business. I think you're delusional if you think a government run 407 could even come close to providing the service that the 407 currently provides.
 
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caboose483 said:
I want to agree with you but my gut tells me that you're wrong on this one. If operated with typical government "efficiency", the 407 would be a stagnant disaster. Instead of the tolls being recycled into expansion and highway improvement, they'd be wasted for years by government officials arguing over what size font should be used to print the expansion plans.

Look at the 401.. it's only what.. 40 years behind population growth? When the construction on the Mississauga corridor is done that section will only be 30 years behind population growth. For a few summers i did the commute from Milton to near Pearson (before Milton exploded and traffic is MUCH worse now) and after 4 months it was the drive, not the job, that burned me out.

I dislike how expensive the 407 is but it's clear that many people are willing to pay it. The fact that the 407 is actively and aggressively being expanded while the rest of the 400 series highways lag far, far behind creates a market where the 407 (and its rates) are a viable business. I think you're delusional if you think a government run 407 could even come close to providing the service that the 407 currently provides.
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Perhaps I should have said, "The possibility exists that...", but I'd rather believe that government can act efficiently, unlike what we've seen here for the last two terms. All of the same environmental assessment, etc., still had to be worked through for the 407, despite it being run by a private concern. All of that doesn't just get tossed out the window. That's why it's taking so long, to extend it eastwards.

The 401 isn't 40 years behind, but rather simply can't grow to meet volume requirements. It was never supposed to. I wish that I didn't have to reference Wikipedia, but at least it shows historic maps of the original plan. Look at how much is missing, today. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancelled_expressways_in_Toronto

And as to "level of service", have you ever talked to the people at 407? Ever had a billing issue? It's a nightmare.
 
Rob MacLennan said:
Perhaps I should have said, "The possibility exists that...", but I'd rather believe that government can act efficiently, unlike what we've seen here for the last two terms. All of the same environmental assessment, etc., still had to be worked through for the 407, despite it being run by a private concern. All of that doesn't just get tossed out the window. That's why it's taking so long, to extend it eastwards.

The 401 isn't 40 years behind, but rather simply can't grow to meet volume requirements. It was never supposed to. I wish that I didn't have to reference Wikipedia, but at least it shows historic maps of the original plan. Look at how much is missing, today. : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancelled_expressways_in_Toronto

And as to "level of service", have you ever talked to the people at 407? Ever had a billing issue? It's a nightmare.
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Actually I have. I sold my trailer and the guy used my plates on the 407 a few times. I should have cancelled the plates but never thought of it, bad call on my part. On the phone they were rather helpful getting me a printout of where and when the plates were used, as well as sending me the picture taken at each use. Armed with that i was able to contact the buyer and he sent me the $ for the usage.

I am also familiar with the highways that are supposed to exist but don't. When the plans were scrapped that traffic load was shifted elsewhere. The QEW, 403 and 401 (at least for the west end) absorbed it all. What was done to help with that increased traffic load? Did anyone have the foresight to know that the 401 and QEW would soon become overwhelmed? Apparently not. Either that or no one cared enough to do anything about it. Don't even get me started on the DVP.....

They may not be 40 years behind, but they are decades. 10 years ago the drive from Milton to Pearson was a nightmare. Now i'd rather light my pants on fire than do that commute every day. The 401 ought to be no less than 5 lanes each direction from Kitchener to Oshawa.
 
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