Tire warmer newbie - some opinions on tires please

Hello,

Background: did track days 99-02 and then stopped until this year. Back then used top tier street tires (on street bike), now have dedicated track bike. Just bought generator and now have means to use tire warmers. Bike is an ex raced 2000 ZX-6R. So far this year I have been running Q3's that came on it. I do have a an extra set of rims (got from guy who has old squared off street tires on them). Tire warmers are Woodcraft dual temps (very lightly used Gen IIs from VRRA racer)

With the ZX6R I got the following tires:
- Q3's 120/70 180/55 that came on it (1 Grandbend and 1 Mosport RDT on them from me + Shannonville days from last owner)
- a rear 2012 date code Dunlop GPA D211 190/60, used but with about a wear bar amount above the wear bar - would obtain a front to go with it
- set of 2012's Diablo Superbike Pro 120/70 & 180/55 from 2012 with a bunch of wear left on them
- set of 2013's Racing Battlax 125/600 & 180/640 take off slicks, unknown history, wear still 1mm or so in the wear holes

So here are the questions:
1: Is there a preferred set of tires from above list I should start using if I start using tire warmers?
2: Still getting used to bike and I know not that fast, would there be any use in just using the warmers on the Q3's that have worked so far? Or would the Q3's be almost done after 5 days on them even though tread is still there?
3: Any other useful info you are willing to part on the tire warmer newbie?

Thanks, Jeff

A lot depends on the number of heat cycles the tires have been subjected to.

Pro 6 for Dunlop, Orion Motorsports for Pirelli, Ripp Racing for Bridgestone could answer those kinds of questions ?

It's really tough to say. Every tire will act different based on you as the rider, the type of track surface, bike setup etc. My advice to you is do what I did, try different tires out. You seem to have a selection. I am on the Michelin evo dots and slicks at the moment. The life of them is great. I beat on them hard too.
Newbie or not, you will see a difference in tires.


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Personally I wouldn't run any tire I didn't purchase new. Who knows what history the tire has and that's cause enough for me not to trust it.
Tires are relatively cheap so buy new ones.

From that group of tires I would go with the Pirellis for a couple of reasons: From your info on what you are looking to do on the track I would say that you are the type of rider that Pirelli designed this tire for.The Superbike Pro's are a very long lasting tire and heat cycles don't affect them as much as other slicks. Tire warmers are not required for them because the compound in them was meant to grip at a reasonable level in a wide variety of temps. (although I personally would still use warmers on them just because I like having my tires up to temp from the start.)

Here's some info on them from Pirelli: http://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-ww/motorcycle/all-tyres/sheet/diablo-superbike-pro#/description

I don't usually weigh in on tire discussions, its like asking which colour is the best, it's all preference. Given its track related, sometimes experience helps. You really don't need warmers until you hit the advanced group for the most part. Not to say they aren't useful, but you can get away with out it. Street tires are meant to be run for many lower temp heat cycles (relatively), but not at very high temperature (that warmers on full blast will do) for these cycles. If you do use warmers and a street tire, be sure to use the low setting. While a cooking hot tire is great to have, if you can't keep it warm it's not going to help. Its better to run a warmer street tire than a cool race tire.

So race compound or street? Depends on the track. TMP, I can't keep any race tires warm enough. GB is top half of red, mosport is most of yellow and red, SMP is top half of yellow and red. DDT, top of red. Of course there are many variables, that's just a loose ballpark.

Q3's - extremely good tire, given the price point these are my favorite non race compound tire. Only about 2 seconds a lap slower than a full race compound. Inexpensive, great value. By comparison Pirelli Supercorsas (SP) are right up there in terms of performance, but much more expensive so less value.

The superbike pro's have been replaced by the SC3 compound this year. Longer life, but at the cost of grip. I ran these for a while to try them. For an intermediate track rider on a budget, they are a good tire. For me, they would do 4 days, still have 60% tread, but the drop off in grip was bad enough that I'd have to throw them out. They say you can run them without warmers, but I would not recommend it. They do not heat up that quick and you don't want to be wasting laps at half pace to get them up to temp.

211 GPAs - top 50% of the tire has unreal grip, bottom 50% it starts to drop off fairly good. Can't flip these.

Bridgestone is the one race tire I haven't tried, so I can't comment on it. My choice would be the Q3's with warmer on low for a green or yellow rider. They work fine in forward and reverse.

In the end, use up all of the tires you have, see what you like. Just be aware of the race compound tires as the laps click on in a session, as they cool the grip will fall off too.

Hello,

Thanks for the replies. I know I am asking a 'how long is a piece of string' type of question. I hesitated even creating the thread as there are several others about warmers and the like. But if you read those you get the idea that if you have warmers you should use them, even down in the green group. But then smergy puts it in perspective of keeping tire temp in group level speeds at different tracks and it would seem at my current pace the warmer requirement is questionable.

I suppose my Q3 on warmers question was really wondering about cooking the Q3's with the warmers. I hope this week to clean up the second set of rims I have and check the discs on them then will probably mount the Superbike Pros to try them out. Worse case at the track I know I can switch back to the Q3's if I don't like something about the Superbike Pros. I already had the warmers and I knew some of the tires I had with the bike look to have some life left in them and needed warmers to find out so I bought the generator vs new tires.

Thanks, jeff

Will

You can put a Q3 on a warmer at full temp, but it will shorten the life of the tire. Anyone who runs a quick pace can get these pretty hot. It's not that they can't take heat, but if you are only a medium pace rider, you are really just unnecessarily using up tire life getting them hotter than they need to be for your pace. Put them on medium, run some laps, see what the temp is using your hand and you will get an idea of how hot you need to pre-heat them.

If the warmer is on med, but the tire is hotter when you come off the track, run the warmers at full blast, if its cooler, medium is enough. Of course a few degrees warmer is better than you need is better than cooler.

Hope to see you out there

Only run warmers on TRACK tires. Don't ever run warmers on STREET tires. End of story.

The reason for this is that street tires were never intended to operate at the kinds of temps that track tires operate at. Putting warmers on street tires will overheat them and then provide 'greasy' performance out on the track until they cool back to their intended operating temps. Also, street tires aren't nearly as susceptible to heat cycles as track tires are, the rubber compounds in track tires change on a molecular level with every heat cycle. One of the main functions of warmers is to minimize the number of heat cycles put on the tires. At a track day I only put my tires through 1 heat cycle all day by switching between Low & High temps on my Moto-D warmers.

My concern with used track tires isn't the amount of tread on them, it's how many heat cycles have they endured. That rubber, even though there may be lots of it, could be complete ***** due to having heat cycled a ton of times.

There is a thread on this topic and John Byckle (sorry If I mispelled) wrote an extensive explanation and perspective on this topic.

I would suggest finding it and reading it before any further information or miss information is offered.

Hello,

I have read those and quite honestly John's (Bickle) opinion in those threads were in the back of my mind when a generator came available (since already had warmers). I also got the feeling from those threads that they were more focused on dedicated track tires so I question if my Q3s are applicable to many of John's comments on warmers helping. I sent an e-mail to Pro6 to ask about warmers and Q3 as well to see what the Dunlop rep says.

Like I said about, I hesitated creating a new thread about similar. John has fixed my leathers in the past and ages ago I talked warmers with him, I have also talked to some others about tires recently. The trick is getting the information for your level and not for the level that some of them are used to dealing with. I spoke to one tuner lately who works with Canadian Superbike teams, his idea of trackday speeds and tire needs are probably a bit different than where my head is at. So I was just looking for some opinions understanding that at the end of the day I need to determine which info to trust and it's my *** in the seat.

Thanks, Jeff

Fair enough, I was just making sure you read that thread as must of the information would be useful for you.

Just FYI - I friend of mine over heated his Q3s on track, they got very greasy and he had a huge high-side. However he is a racer and this was during an endurance race and he had the red mist that day, so at a beginner pace they might be ok - just a piece of information.

Side question but still related: what pressure should Q3 be for track? I've heard 30/30 or 32/30 hot but I have seen people say numbers all over the chart.

architect said:

Side question but still related: what pressure should Q3 be for track? I've heard 30/30 or 32/30 hot but I have seen people say numbers all over the chart.

Click to expand...

Ask pro6

architect said:

Side question but still related: what pressure should Q3 be for track? I've heard 30/30 or 32/30 hot but I have seen people say numbers all over the chart.

Click to expand...

Here is what I got back from Pro6:

The Q3 works best without warmers at 30 front and 28 rear cold. This tire is designed to work in varying conditions but has its limits for higher end track riding like fast end of yellow group or red. If this is where you see yourself it's recommend to use the D211, GPA Pros, or Kr series slicks.

Click to expand...

I was using 30/30 cold the 2 days I have on them so far.Jeff

I would throw the Pirelli's out. They may look like they have lots of rubber left but the superbike pros fall off a cliff at a certain point, long before the wear bars in my experience, and become almost unrideable. Considering their age I wouldn't even risk it.

Ultimately I wouldn't use any of the other sets you have, they all sound worn out and not worth even bothering with. Just buy a new set when you wear out your Q3's

Hello,

I am starting to think the same. I contacted the last owner and found out that he got the superbike pros with the bike and used them a couple of times (including a dump). I mounted them on rims then found out they predated the previous owner and left the Q3's on the bike.

Jeff

Scrubs are a very economical way to save some money at first. But ,, buy them from a known source. My advice is buy them before they are scrubs. So find a pro racer or a top amatuer. pay for them and get them direct from the rider. Hand me downs ,,well they can be suspect as people advised.
A street tire is not a bad option in the beginning if you plan on riding in cold/damp conditions. You can do it with out rains.
BUT,, you will go to a track tire sooner then later. So developing a program sooner is better then too late.
Keep it simple,, single temp warmer,, it's on or off,,, We have found it is not the heat cycle but how you heat cycle. And truely, today,, nobody uses tires long enough to be concerned about heat cycles. We have tested many tires through their life and the rubber is very consistent when up to temp.With all tires. Now to qualify that ,we tested the rubber with the durometer when the tires were 80 C plus. The big breakdown is side walls. The bikes and traction control load the side wall so much as they can carry so much corner speed today. The tread may be fine but the side wall will break down. So you want a scrub with as few laps. Also a scrub that was heat soaked properly with good warmers by the previous owner.