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Ineligible disclosure
- Thread starter daught
- Start date
Contempt for the process opens a whole other kettle of rotten fish.
Orly?
Your "precedent" case (which happened in a BC provincial court, which last time I checked doesn't share Ontario's HTA) centered around the first JP and his judicial order. Not if the defendant could understand the prosecutions evidence or not.
Again, you can request anything you want, but the prosecution is under no obligation to provide you with disclosure you can actually read or not. It is entirely up to the JP's discretion when it comes to chicken scratch. I've BTDT more than once.
Rules of disclosure apply to everything from parking tickets, up through murder cases.
^ This is correct.
A good article regarding the Abrey case.
Crown’s non-disclosure nets award of $5,000 in compensatory costs
http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=558
A good article regarding the Abrey case.
Crown’s non-disclosure nets award of $5,000 in compensatory costs
http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=558
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daught
Well-known member
Wait, do I really have to make a further disclosure request? Since I got part of my disclosure they got my request. I clearly asked for it to be typed. If I make a further disclosure request and I get one I am worse off when I go to trial. With the disclosure I have now I can get my trial adjourned, or even better they just convict me. Then I can appeal.
Did you read the linked cases? JPs like to see that you've done your due diligence. It makes the prosecution look even worse.
^^
Keep in mind that the JP in all fairness is suppose to be on your side, not the crown. If you do everything in your power as a civilian to defend yourself and to have a proper defense via trial and the crown continues to stumble along, he is going to side with you all the way.
Keep in mind that the JP in all fairness is suppose to be on your side, not the crown. If you do everything in your power as a civilian to defend yourself and to have a proper defense via trial and the crown continues to stumble along, he is going to side with you all the way.
Here is the Further Disclosure Request form from the prosecutors officer at Old City Hall.
You can make your own request document, just make sure that you have all of the same information as on their form.
Make sure to fax it to the correct fax number for the correct Prosecutor's office. Be sure to keep the fax confirmation and bring that to court! You can also call the prosecutor's office after you have faxed the Disclosure Request to confirm that it was received.
The items you are looking to receive are...
- A type will-say of the officer's evidence
- An explanation of the officer's abbreviations (used in their notes)
You can make your own request document, just make sure that you have all of the same information as on their form.
Make sure to fax it to the correct fax number for the correct Prosecutor's office. Be sure to keep the fax confirmation and bring that to court! You can also call the prosecutor's office after you have faxed the Disclosure Request to confirm that it was received.
The items you are looking to receive are...
- A type will-say of the officer's evidence
- An explanation of the officer's abbreviations (used in their notes)
daught
Well-known member
I am researching what do do if I dont get proper disclosure.
Should I just say "I would like to raise a motion to have the charge stayed due to lack of proper disclosure" Is that good?
What is the best time to say it? FYST says I should say it after I make my plea, but I would rather enter my plea after I analyze my disclosure. Can I ask to have the charges stayed before I make a plea?
THX everyone. Wish I could buy you all a BIG coffee. People here go way beyond the gtam smack talk and tolling.
Should I just say "I would like to raise a motion to have the charge stayed due to lack of proper disclosure" Is that good?
What is the best time to say it? FYST says I should say it after I make my plea, but I would rather enter my plea after I analyze my disclosure. Can I ask to have the charges stayed before I make a plea?
THX everyone. Wish I could buy you all a BIG coffee. People here go way beyond the gtam smack talk and tolling.
Here is a good thread...
http://www.gtamotorcycle.com/vbforum/showthread.php?150550-Lack-of-Disclosure
daught
Well-known member
Well this went bad... To clarify, I was only kidding about acting like an idiot. I was very courteous.
I might have screwed myself. When I went to the courtroom my officer was not present in the room. I know from previous experiences, that the prosecutor sometimes won't admit the officer is not present. The JP was dropping charges for lots of people due to officers being away. I decided to try to proceed and get my charges dropped due to the officer being away, instead of getting the likely adjournment for lack of disclosure. When I got called up:
JP: are you ready to proceed?
Me: Yes
JP: How do you plead?
Me: Not guilty
Me: Is the officer present? (I admit I shouldn't have asked)
JP: Yes. (They call him in)
At this point I made my motion to stay the charges, due to lack of disclosure. P denies it.
This JP, was very dismissive of disclosure. He did not see why I would need disclosure and time to prepare a defense. Biggest prick I ever encountered.
I showed him my disclosure request and the two subsequent request for further disclosure. He did not even look at them. He said something like "what do you need disclosure for? You are playing games"
I ask him for an adjournment and have the typed notes sent to me. Denied.
He sent me out with the cop to go over his notes. When I got out the cop refused to even go sit down at a table to go over his notes. I had to take the notes standing...
Twenty minutes latter the cop comes back and tells me I have to go to trial.
I ask for an adjournment again, arguing that 20 minutes is not enough to prepare a defense. DENIED.
The prosecutor starts asking the cop the usual. At this point the cop starts describing a COMPLETELY different case. The prosecutor CORRECTS him. I am pretty sure I should have objected here or something. Too bad I did not realize it in time. Can this can help me in way after the fact?
During cross examination I question the cop on the radar detector. This is where I get a big break. The manual says that two test MUST be performed at the beginning of the shift and at the end. He only performed the self test. He omitted the road test. Again the manual clearly states both tests MUST be performed. The cop also missed some small stuff under the self test.
Is this enough to get me off? The officer did not pace me or anything else. He charged based on this improperly calibrated radar detector.
This is where it gets weird. At this point the JP adjourns my case. Kind of sucks. I doubt the JP will remember that the cop omitted one test.
Considering the JP, I doubt he will let me off based on the fact that the radar was improperly calibrated.
Do I have a chance of to an appeal? Did I screw myself by entering a plea before bringing up disclosure issues?
BTW, there were some pretty cool cops in court. I chatted with them at the end. Even they said the JP was a prick and unfair to me.
I might have screwed myself. When I went to the courtroom my officer was not present in the room. I know from previous experiences, that the prosecutor sometimes won't admit the officer is not present. The JP was dropping charges for lots of people due to officers being away. I decided to try to proceed and get my charges dropped due to the officer being away, instead of getting the likely adjournment for lack of disclosure. When I got called up:
JP: are you ready to proceed?
Me: Yes
JP: How do you plead?
Me: Not guilty
Me: Is the officer present? (I admit I shouldn't have asked)
JP: Yes. (They call him in)
At this point I made my motion to stay the charges, due to lack of disclosure. P denies it.
This JP, was very dismissive of disclosure. He did not see why I would need disclosure and time to prepare a defense. Biggest prick I ever encountered.
I showed him my disclosure request and the two subsequent request for further disclosure. He did not even look at them. He said something like "what do you need disclosure for? You are playing games"
I ask him for an adjournment and have the typed notes sent to me. Denied.
He sent me out with the cop to go over his notes. When I got out the cop refused to even go sit down at a table to go over his notes. I had to take the notes standing...
Twenty minutes latter the cop comes back and tells me I have to go to trial.
I ask for an adjournment again, arguing that 20 minutes is not enough to prepare a defense. DENIED.
The prosecutor starts asking the cop the usual. At this point the cop starts describing a COMPLETELY different case. The prosecutor CORRECTS him. I am pretty sure I should have objected here or something. Too bad I did not realize it in time. Can this can help me in way after the fact?
During cross examination I question the cop on the radar detector. This is where I get a big break. The manual says that two test MUST be performed at the beginning of the shift and at the end. He only performed the self test. He omitted the road test. Again the manual clearly states both tests MUST be performed. The cop also missed some small stuff under the self test.
Is this enough to get me off? The officer did not pace me or anything else. He charged based on this improperly calibrated radar detector.
This is where it gets weird. At this point the JP adjourns my case. Kind of sucks. I doubt the JP will remember that the cop omitted one test.
Considering the JP, I doubt he will let me off based on the fact that the radar was improperly calibrated.
Do I have a chance of to an appeal? Did I screw myself by entering a plea before bringing up disclosure issues?
BTW, there were some pretty cool cops in court. I chatted with them at the end. Even they said the JP was a prick and unfair to me.
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Wow, that JP was a dick. I guarantee he adjourned the case so he could examine the manual and the cops testimony. 95% chance he'll dismiss the charges with "no chance of conviction". If he didn't do the tests properly and completely then for SURE the case will get dismissed.
How far away is your new court date? Into 11b territory yet?
daught
Well-known member
Not even close to 11b.
The judge won't examine anything. I can guarantee you that. I have a feeling it will go down something like:
Me: The officer did not calibrate the unit properly. (explain what twas omited)
JP: Does it matter? You are not a professional, you don't know what needs to be done.
Me: The manual states what has to be done...
OR
Or the JP will claim the cop's calibration was sufficient, at which point I will ask him if he is a professional...
Anyways I am pretty sure I will get convicted anyways.
Get the case law that states what calibration procedure must be used. it's out there and it's precedent. If he ignores it you appeal, based on mistake of law, and get the conviction overturned.
This is the only board where people have shared successful experiences of getting their charges stayed due to improper disclosure; i can understand it getting stayed because the new adjournment dates could trigger an 11b.
But improper disclosure by itself is not worthy of a S.24 Charter Stay; the remedy is an easy & simple one: the defendant gets proper disclosure.
The moment you say, "i'm ready to proceed" all pre-trial motions and conflicts are thrown out the window.
______________________________
Regarding the radar detector test, did you specifically ask the officer whether he performed the 'road test'? Did you ask him about the 'small stuff' he missed under the self test?
Did he respond to the effect that he did not perform them at all? Or is his silence being used against him?
Was the manual for radar detector submitted as an exhibit for the JP to examine?
In your closing submissions, what did you say?
But improper disclosure by itself is not worthy of a S.24 Charter Stay; the remedy is an easy & simple one: the defendant gets proper disclosure.
The moment you say, "i'm ready to proceed" all pre-trial motions and conflicts are thrown out the window.
______________________________
Regarding the radar detector test, did you specifically ask the officer whether he performed the 'road test'? Did you ask him about the 'small stuff' he missed under the self test?
Did he respond to the effect that he did not perform them at all? Or is his silence being used against him?
Was the manual for radar detector submitted as an exhibit for the JP to examine?
In your closing submissions, what did you say?
Did the JP adjourn the case prior to or after the closing submissions?
If prior to the closing submissions, then during your closing submissions you will want to point out that the officer did not do the tests properly. Make sure to have three copies of the manual page that explains the proper testing procedure.
http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/sel...efendants-in-provincial-offences-cases/guide/
If prior to the closing submissions, then during your closing submissions you will want to point out that the officer did not do the tests properly. Make sure to have three copies of the manual page that explains the proper testing procedure.
http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/sel...efendants-in-provincial-offences-cases/guide/
Yup, ready to proceed is exactly that.
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