Last Minute NOOB RIDE

rafiki911 said:

Not a good idea to suggest this to someone that is new to riding...

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I agree with rafiki on this... this is an advanced skill that may take some time to master - a noob ride is not the place to be teaching this skill.

TiburonJA said:

...I just dipped from the group....I was already riding beyond my limit...

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Thanks for adding your 2 cents.

It makes great sense to dip when riding beyond your skill level. Better be an alive pansy than a dead noob.

At the start of any group ride we as leaders should determine each riders skill level;

- how long have they been riding?
- have they been on a group rides before?

Once everyones riding ability has been determined we should go over the route before heading out. We should inform the group if heavy traffic will be encountered, if there will be street car tracks, stop and go traffic (lots of gearing), pot holes etc.

Before the ride even begins, if the ride is above your ability, bow out and leave. Leaders should also ask less experienced rider to leave the ride if he/she feels their ability will put the groups safety at risk.

Basic hand signals should be introduced before gearing up;

- one finger in the air - ride single file

- two fingers in the air - resume staggered formation

- heel pointing to ground - watch road for obstacles (left heel = left hazard, right heel = right hazard)

- left hand waving like dribbling a basketball - slow down

- tapping helmet - police

These hand signals should be passed down the line right to the last rider.

SeaBreez said:

.... how does a noob make a 90 degree corner going way too fast with grit on the road and no ability/skill to lean it over hard?

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The answer my friends is;

Upon seeing the hazard the leader will wave his left hand slowing down the group. He will point with his heel that the road conditions pose a threat, he will negotiate the corner at a safe slow speed so all riders make it through safely.

It is the responsibility of the leader to protect the less experienced riders from harm and to bring everyone home safely.

Unfortunatly we let down the two riders that crashed that day.


I would like to thank everyone who commented on this post and welcome further comments/suggestions to make all of our rides more safe for everyone.

SeaBreez

+1 :glasses5:

SeaBreez said:

The answer my friends is;

Upon seeing the hazard the leader will wave his left hand slowing down the group. He will point with his heel that the road conditions pose a threat, he will negotiate the corner at a safe slow speed so all riders make it through safely.

It is the responsibility of the leader to protect the less experienced riders from harm and to bring everyone home safely.

Unfortunatly we let down the two riders that crashed that day.


I would like to thank everyone who commented on this post and welcome further comments/suggestions to make all of our rides more safe for everyone.

SeaBreez

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Silent Q said:

I'm just saying, that is something I learned in my MSF course. "If you think you are going to crash, lean for all you've got. You just might save yourself." I don't mean expert technique or anything, but just give it all you got and you may not crash. A 50/50 chance to crash is better than the 100% chance you started with if you are already in a bad situation and can't do anything else to fix it. I'm still an M1 rider and it is a bit intimadating, but better than nothing.

I'm not telling them this to belittle them, I'm saying it for next time, just trust the bike, when you have no other option.

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You could also make things worse if you don't know what you are doing and haven't practiced this in a safe envoronment first. Your best bet is to slow down before the turn and look where you want to go and commit.

Silent Q said:

...if you are already in a bad situation and can't do anything else to fix it.

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You know, when it is ALREADY too late. I'm not telling every newb to start touching their helmets to the ground...

There is a Greek saying "ELA PAPPOU NA SOU DEIXW T' AMPELIA". Which translates to "Come on, grandpa', I'll show you your vineyards."

You might want to listen up to the people trying to help and give advise. Been a newb for two years now and still learning and taking advise. Kept me alive so far. Suggesting you open your ears(and eyes since we are reading here) and take in the info.

rafiki911 said:

There is a Greek saying "ELA PAPPOU NA SOU DEIXW T' AMPELIA". Which translates to "Come on, grandpa', I'll show you your vineyards."

You might want to listen up to the people trying to help and give advise. Been a newb for two years now and still learning and taking advise. Kept me alive so far. Suggesting you open your ears(and eyes since we are reading here) and take in the info.

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Take your own advice perhaps? It's better to try and lean rather than go straight into a ditch.

RandomHero said:

Take your own advice perhaps? It's better to try and lean rather than go straight into a ditch.

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He's telling people to get their butts off the seats and put their knees out. Huge difference between that and trying to lean. I agree with trying to lean but most important is to look where you want to go and usually the bike will do the rest.

rafiki911 said:

There is a Greek saying "ELA PAPPOU NA SOU DEIXW T' AMPELIA". Which translates to "Come on, grandpa', I'll show you your vineyards."

You might want to listen up to the people trying to help and give advise. Been a newb for two years now and still learning and taking advise. Kept me alive so far. Suggesting you open your ears(and eyes since we are reading here) and take in the info.

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I agree, all the points mentioned in this post are intended to teach riders how to survive, whether noobs or veteran riders.

I have been a noob for (oh my gosh) 30 years and still learning.

I get the feeling there is something lacking in the rider training courses as both riders who went down took motorcycle training.

Any instructors on this forum care to post a comment?

if ur a noob... join rides and enjoy... but at the end of the day you are responsible for your
***** . . . dont try and impress anyone.. ride within YOUR limits "ride your ride"... if the group leaves you continue on your own or go home make sweet sweet love to your significant other LoL...

and as for leaders.. if you post "NOOB ride" ... pls have the decency / respect that there might be someone in the group that has under 1000km under their belt

but for the noobs

ride your ride .... and pls be careful

rafiki911 said:

He's telling people to get their butts off the seats and put their knees out. Huge difference between that and trying to lean. I agree with trying to lean but most important is to look where you want to go and usually the bike will do the rest.

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My bad, misunderstood what you were in disagreement with.

kekekekyle said:

I was the first one to go down. It was in a sharp left turn. I did not notice the yellow signs.

Here's what I thought happened:
As I was leaned over, my rear tire started losing traction (there was a lot of dirt/dust in the right tire track). I straightened up and grabbed both brakes. Once I hit the grass, I lost all traction and went down.

Here's what actually happened (SeaBreez, feel free to comment):
I entered the turn way too fast, panicked and hit the rear brake (even though I know not to do this), started losing traction, released the rear brake, straightened up, grabbed both brakes. I did not brake in time, hit the grass, lost all traction, and went down.

I was incredibly lucky because the guard rail was to my right, and a hydro pole was to my left. My mistakes were: foolishly trying to keep up with the riders ahead of me, not knowing how fast I was going, not being aware of my surroundings (road signs), and not being aware of the road conditions (dirt/dust on the road). These all contributed to my crash. Do not make my mistakes. I hope I never repeat them.

That being said, read what SeaBreez posted. Those are all questions I did not know to ask before going on this ride. Just because a ride is M1 friendly does not necessarily mean it is newb friendly. Just be aware of your own skill level, because in the end I have no one to blame but myself.

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I am glad to hear it wasn't a serious fall. Its good that you realized what you had done wrong and learned from it. Just a few questions, when you were making the left turn, how fast were you going at the turn? did you brake at all going into the turn? was it a traffic light turn? Were you countersteering or you just turn a try to lean into it? (common mistake for M1 noobs)

I am not much of an experience rider myself but do want to put in my 2 cents of wisdom from a non technical side but more from common sense. Even though it is a noob ride, I think the group leader should have a good understanding of at least the minimum level of competency of each rider. It said M1 friendly. Which essentially means someone who just went to the Ministry the day before and written the test and passed and buy a bike in the afternoon and do all the paper work can basically join this group ride the next day. I am NOT trying to be critical, just a suggestion and hope the organizers do not take this the wrong way. Perhaps on your posting, list out the basic skill sets or minimum riding hours/km (10 hours or 100km for example) requirements and what they need to be able to do before joining the ride. If possible, perhaps organize the ride to meet at a bigger parking lot and make sure all those who are only on their M1 to do some basic drills to at least see if they can properly make a turn (i.e countersteer, etc.) And if a rider is clearly not yet ready for the traffic, perhap it is best to advice him or her to perhaps join the ride next time when they have more experience.

That's just my suggestion.

Thanks for your two cents RR929... These type of suggestions are exactly what we need to prevent these preventable accidents from happening on future rides. Being behind kekekekyle, I would estimate his speed to be about 50kph, heading into a sharp 90 degree turn. Barely a lean, but he hit the brakes hard. He had no chance, and very lucky to escape injury.

RandomHero said:

My bad, misunderstood what you were in disagreement with.

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No worries

I will put in my 2 cents from what i have learned this season (8000kms this season) ; i have been in many noob group rides to experienced spirited group rides .(leading many group rides myself)
make sure you have put at least 1000 kms riding experience on different type of roads (twisties, highway combined) before going for any group rides. ur shifting and acceleration should be in good level.
before i lead any group rides , i ask each rider whats their experience level on different type of roads (twisties, highways) how many kms and how long they have been riding. after that i was placing most experienced rider as a sweeper. my ride my rules are +20km for regular roads and highways, if u wanna go faster u are free go wherever u want to go. in the city if u come to red light , dont worry we will wait for u , dont try to follow the group and put u in danger with getting t boned.

Before the twisty roads (snake road, forks, 507) i stop and warn the noobs who never been in those roads before and tell them to ride in ur own comfortable speed , dont try to catch the guy in front of u , if u fall behind , dont worry we will wait for u at the end of the twiesties. especially this is very important for noobs who never been in those roads before. as a leader i always felt its my responsibility to make sure everyone gets home safe without any problem. and im happy that noone went down on my group rides that i was leading . well i did low sided my bike when i was with another rider on snake road this season , bu it was me not paying attention to the gravel. luckly only afew scratches here and there . I still think im a still a noob and learn from more experienced riders alot . i have been in some group rides where i learned alot from leader and sweeper , like the last algonquin fall ride , i learned alot from kamikaze , he is the best sweeper i have seen so far in group rides .

i have seen some freaky bike crashes this season, and honestly it scared the hell out of me , most of them happened because of noobs trying to ride like experienced riders , trying to catch the group thats not fit for them , risking too much for their skill level.

i dont wanna comment on this last minute noob ride crashes ,I wasnt there , just glad that they walked away and from the pics it looks like only minor damages to the bikes as well.

cheers and ride safe ...

Thanks motorsiklet, those are great tips. I think we are on the right track in teaching both leaders and noobs how to "group ride safely".

SeaBreez said:

I get the feeling there is something lacking in the rider training courses as both riders who went down took motorcycle training.

Any instructors on this forum care to post a comment?

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Not an instructor but I've been around for a while.

What type of training courses had the riders taken - just the regular courses for getting a license, or had they taken more advanced training? By more "advanced training" I am talking about something like the Lee Parks Total Control course, or the FAST or Racer5 track schools.

I am a strong advocate of every rider taking an advanced training course as soon as they have gotten to the point where operating the controls on the bike has become more-or-less a habit. (There is no point in taking an advanced course if you are still fumbling with how to use a manual clutch.) This is probably a few thousand km of street riding. It's best to take such an advanced course before going on group rides that could involve any sort of real cornering (twisty back roads) and FOR SURE before doing a track day.

The regular courses for people to get their license cannot focus on advanced skills because they are dealing with a lot of people who have never operated a motorcycle before. They're also focused on negotiating traffic and intersections and obeying the law, which is all well and good, but cornering at higher speeds quickly gets into a realm that is beyond what it needs to just get your license. The more advanced and/or track-oriented courses have more focus on vehicle dynamics, and how to shift your weight around, and how to use your eyes (where to look), and how to correctly go around a corner.

I'm not saying to treat every corner as if it were a race track - there are important differences, notably the lack of ability to repeatedly go around the same corner lap after lap, and having to deal with oncoming traffic - there are some important differences in the correct line through a corner to allow for the possibility of traffic. But still, the more different types of riding environments that one can experience, the more you will learn, and it will be fun doing so!

My 2 cents.......Any Group Ride should always be "Rider Beware at all time"....ride at your own pace and your own skill level and never ever ride beyond your conforts.....i have been in many group rides from newbie friendly to fast pace and even in the faster pace levels i shake my head watching some riders ride beyond there skill levels..... RIDER BEWARE...